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Old 22nd October 2001, 22:57   #1  |  Link
DDogg
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open message about free pies :)

I thought I would take a few minutes to put a few things into perspective, especially for the newer participants to this forum (and have a little fun doing it).

Let's go back to the early part of 2001. At that time only a few, very proficient people could backup a dvd to svcd. It was a mind-boggling concoction of different programs, many of which worked poorly. To be able to hand make a svcd backup was close to an art. It was extremely new, difficult, and more importantly, terribly time consuming. It was not unusual for a backup to take a week of evenings to finish.

Along comes DVD2SVCD the author. He did a fairly quick down and dirty hack to be able to automate some of the stuff we were doing manually so in the wee hours of the morning a process could be completed and another begun automatically. That was a terrific thing for those of us who could do all the steps and we were VERY appreciative of what he did.

Now comes the blessing or the curse depending on your perspective
Many more features were added and DVD2SVCD became a feature packed robust program a long way from its humble origin. Doing a backup became much easier and so began to attract less experienced users. These users not only had less computer experience, they also had much less "board" experience in an online community and some did not understand forum manners.

Why is that a curse to some? Well let me answer that question, with a question. If somebody stops by your house and brings a nice pie, do you say to that person, "You FOOL!!!, WHY did you bring me a cherry pie, I WANTED an APPLE PIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [edited for language - 2001 was a different time than now regarding language on this board]

Btw, to the newer folks, note how irritating the caps and exclamation marks are (besides the content). (See this post about that) So, from the perspective of many of the older members of this group, DVD2SVCD was nice enough to bring us a great pie (without being asked). That was a neighborly thing to do, yes? Even if I didn't like cherry pie, I would not offend my neighbor by suggesting I just was not satisfied with what he brought me. If I did, I could count on getting no more free pie Everybody with me? LOL

Now here is the problem, the pie is good, free and in demand. The chef is getting stressed out trying to keep all his old and new friends in great tasting pie. In short, it is becoming a pain in the ass for the pie maker. Adding to that, most will not even do him the courtesy of buying a little flour and eggs by way of making a small donation. They just want the free pie AND THEY WANT TO BITCH ABOUT IT. Amazing!

The moral of this story is: if you like free pie, but not this weeks flavor, keep your pie hole shut about it, or you may not get the chance to try next weeks flavor. Or you can go bake your own, of course. If you do, I strongly suggest you don't start baking for all your neighbors. It is way too stressful.

DD

Last edited by DDogg; 16th October 2003 at 16:16.
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Old 23rd October 2001, 03:01   #2  |  Link
mrbass
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I'm one of those newbie users...started 100% fresh (video encoding stuff) about 3 months ago. Some where in my religion it goes something like this:
Where much is given much is expected.
Basically means what has DVD2SVCD asked for from you? $500 like the new videopack from roxio? No, only for donations and it's entirely up to you the amount or whether you wish to donate or not.

So for those clamoring for new features. There's always the manual way (which I'm sure I'd fail miserably at myself) but at least you can fulfill your ultimate fantasies and that way has limitless flexibilities (is there really 4 i's? sp?).

Basically ddogg is burned out and rightfully so. DVD2SVCD is posting every now and then but it used to be way more often. The reason is simple. Way too many newbie questions which are answered elsewhere and if we questioned you if you've read and re-read doom9's DVD2SVCD guide? Did you read the Q&A a few times? I bet the answer would be a resounding NO.

I believe the best way to deal with these ridiculous questions is just to ignore them. Although it wastes time reading through them all the time. Anyway I agree ddog's analogy 100%. Now you know how us old time linux users feel too...hehe.
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Old 23rd October 2001, 04:20   #3  |  Link
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Big difference with you and some others, mrbass.

First, you were always respectful of the fact that this is all a free volunteer effort. Second, as soon as you could, you started helping people, and spent a lot of time on the board doing that. In short, you and others like you (too numerous to mention), made a contribution to this community and continue doing so.

You all have been able to take a lot of load off of those of us that are getting burned out. That is supposed to be the way a board works. Newbies come in, lurk, learn, are respectful, start helping and before you know it, become the respected figures until they burn out and are replaced by a new crop, etc, ad infinitum.

It is pretty cool when it works right. Now, perhaps because I have been way too easy about it, many (not all) newbies come in, don't lurk, don't learn, don't read the Q&A and other pieces of information and demand immediate answers to dumbass questions that have been answered SO many time before. It gets very tiring when it doesn't work the way it is supposed to, for sure.

Thanks again to you, and all the others that help out so much. Without you it certainly would be a bleaker place.
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Old 23rd October 2001, 04:28   #4  |  Link
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That is one of the best examples of how things work that i have read in a long time. And like Mrbass i am fairly new to Video encoding also.. about 4-6 months now i have been doing it.. and Dvd2svcd has been a great program in teaching me also how to do it with all the programs he uses and how he steps through them.. If people care to learn it. Though i still wouldn't wish to attempt it on my own since i don't know all the settings and what they do to the extent of what you and Dvd2svcd know about them. I know one thing that i will always try to do. If i have a problem or first come read the FAQ's. If it is been a while and have a new problem.. I still go back to reading the FAQ's cause you never know they could of been updated since the last time you read them and your answer could be in there now.
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Old 23rd October 2001, 22:48   #5  |  Link
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This is about TMPG vs CCE, isn't it? BTW, sorry I suggested something that DVD2SVCD is tired of hearing (using both TMPG and CCE). At least it seemed to be a reasonable observation to me and I certainly didn't bitch about it. And I missed that bit about TMPG in the "readme before..." thread.

Oh well. I need to learn how to bake myself a pie.

Last edited by DDogg; 16th October 2003 at 16:17.
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Old 23rd October 2001, 23:24   #6  |  Link
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Unfortunately I have seen this scenario repeated countless times in all walks of life. When I was younger, I was constantly volunteering to help run things or become a club officer, etc. I remember my first "burnout" and it wasn't pretty. The disillusionment, hurt and feeling of betrayal were almost too much to bear.

Now that I am a "crusty old dude" I volunteeer much less, expect nothing in return and consider most people to be "users" until proven otherwise.

A sad commentary on life but it happens every day. The givers will give until they become "disillusioned dreamers" and the users will use as long as the givers give. The circle is broken when the users wear out the givers. In this forum we're almost at that stage.

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Old 23rd October 2001, 23:24   #7  |  Link
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Hey, gldblade, ya feeling guilty or something?

Nah, it is not about anything in particular. If it was, I would have said it as I am not one to hide my specific feelings in gastronomical metaphor. (Oh, I liked that one!)

Nothing wrong with new ideas or even pushing a point of view that one feels strongly about. That's what the group is for in many ways, to stimulate new thinking and to provide a common point of interchange to speak about a subject, sometimes a little on the stong side, er, I think that is called spirited discussion isn't it?

This missive, in general, was about a phenomenon happening on many boards as we speak. Specifically, because many commercial companies started used a forum like methodology for tech support, newbie forum members have failed to realize, or connect with the fact, that commercial support boards and a community forum are not the same thing in the slightest.

Many have started to think of community boards like it was paid tech support for a commercial product and as if they DESERVE something. As soon as they realize they don't deserve DICK from any other member, nor are ENTITLED to anything, nada, nothing, zilch, then they start fitting in and become a good member of the community.

A community forum is just like a neighborhood. Neighbors help each other, support each other, but never DEMAND from each other. To do so is to make assured that one does not have any neighbors that can be counted on in the future.

DD

Last edited by DDogg; 16th October 2003 at 16:18.
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Old 24th October 2001, 01:08   #8  |  Link
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>Hey, gldblade, ya feeling guilty or something?

Actually, not really. I only posted once about it.

>Nah, it is not about anything in particular as I am not one to hide my specific feelings in gastronomical metaphor. (Oh, I liked that one!)


Last edited by DDogg; 16th October 2003 at 16:19.
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Old 24th October 2001, 01:26   #9  |  Link
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just wanted to say that i agree with ddogg 100% (as always)!
thanx for this post.
i think all the moderators should just take things more easy and not answer every question themselfs. in the forums the users should help each other, right? stop by once in a while and like everybody else jump in if you're interested...or sooner or later you'll feel like a slave.

wef.
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Old 24th October 2001, 10:58   #10  |  Link
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DDogg, how I enjoyed your pie story, much better than a rant.

Now I am one of those old time hand bakers of pies, that has recently started to use DVD2SVCD's Pie'O'Matic. I keep fairly quiet most of the time observing the mixing and cooking process' of other chefs learning not only by my own mistakes but theirs also. I may not be over imbued with flour and eggs that I can donate, but I have managed to help point out when a gooseberry or two has managed to sneak into our nice cherry pie.

I too have noticed many new 'Jamie Olivers' appearing as customers at our resteraunt. Many of them seem to be confused about what is on the menu. Perhaps we could create a small, terse menu about exactly which flavour pies are currently being served, which pies may be served in the future, and which pies will definately never be served as they taste inferior to the current pies ( the TMPEnc pie for example ).

I think as Maitre-d you are doing an exceptional job, this resteraunt is still a pleasure to be in compared to some soup kitchens I have frequented in the past. But maybe, and it's only a suggestion, we need a couple of bouncers added to the staff, that can help unruly customers behave in an acceptable manner, so they don't end up annoying you, and our hard working head chef.
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Old 24th October 2001, 18:02   #11  |  Link
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I totally agree with DDogg, as always. I'm new at SVCD creation (2 or 3 months), and i was not able to have something acceptable before discovering DVD2SVCD and Doom9 site (thank you, Google ).

I first had problems with DVD2SVCD, CCE etc., and now i naturally want to find how i can get better results etc so i post new thread. Now i think i know some things, and i'm trying to answer to newbies, or tell about my experiments (and yes, it takes a lot of time : those who has never answered and only asked, try, and you will see by yourslef that it takes much time to answer than to ask...especially for non-english speaking people )

I think we should ALL try to answer when we have the anwser. This will help moderators a lot. There are several categories of "problematic" questions :

- agressive questions : i will never answer, and we all should never answer, or an automatic answer like : "do it yourself"...
- questions that have been answered in the guide, the Q&A or the readme of DVD2SVCD : it is not acceptable, but sometimes it's possible to miss something, or to misunderstand something (for non english speaking people only ? )
- questions already answered in the forum : ok, it's not acceptable either, but until the search feature will be on (and yes, the answer to that is somewhere in the forum ), we should be cool with this.
- suggestions on DVD2SVCD : it's natural, that's the way we are, improvements often come from suggestions. We only need to be polite, and no "i want this, or i neeeeed that". And sometimes it can be sensitive questions (it seems that DVD2SVCD don't want to hear about tmpgenc...) but it is sometimes difficult to deal with such things.

I'm not sure i'm very clear, it's difficult for me to be clear in english, but i think you understand what i mean in this reply.

Thanks,

Matzed
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Old 25th October 2001, 15:21   #12  |  Link
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Thanks, DobbyPower and matzed,

Perhaps because I am older, and a southerner (Texan), I like to see our community hospitable to everybody. That comes from the old days where if you were inpolite somebody could shoot ya with impunity! (just kidding)

Seriously though, I really dislike rudeness. IMO, this is a "new" way of the new world that I don't care for at all. I don't care what culture, religion, age, ethnicity, etc., we should all do our best to remember that everybody is due proper respect until they demonstrate they are not due any (then ya shoot them ). It is easy to say that, but damn hard to do when somebody asks "Is a cdr round or square"

Anyway, to DobbyPower's bouncer comment, while I agree, I would rather limit that type of response to people that are rude and disrespectful of our community, rather than those that are just lazy and dumb. There is a fundemental difference between the two types and sometimes that is easy to forget.

We can still answer a dumbass question with a link to another thread since the search thing is not working and a polite but pointed, "In the future, please do some more research before asking questions in the forum".

Also, let's try to educate people about how superfluous questions drive good stuff off the first page of the board too quickly. This board has such a large amount of traffic that sometimes it reminds me of an alt.binaries group with messages being driven off in just a day. At least we don't actually lose any like they do.

I am going to check in with Doom9 soon and see what the traffic is like. If it is heavy enough perhaps I could request of him a DVD2SVCD newbie forum like he did for NanDub. Then some of us could alternate telling folks cdrs are the little round frisbee looking things

DD
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Old 26th October 2001, 01:09   #13  |  Link
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markrb,

Your point is well taken. I do share some of your concerns. I think the answer, IF we do it, is to have a couple of good, fresh mods. That is the only way it would work. It is still in the "thinking stage".
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Old 26th October 2001, 02:14   #14  |  Link
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I also think it wouldn't be a good idea to split the board. It is sometimes very hard to read dumb questions and answer them polite, but I want to keep the whole cumumity together, because as Mark said, newbies also have good ideas and how should anewbie decide if a question is a newbie question or a difficult one...
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Old 26th October 2001, 02:37   #15  |  Link
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let the mods decide...if they're really not sure let the post go into Advanced forum and leave it up to the discretion of the Gods (I mean Mods) to move it or not.
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Old 26th October 2001, 09:29   #16  |  Link
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I think we should try the Newbie forum for a trial period. If it doesn't work out as it should we can always revert back to the original. Besides how many forums have you seen where there is this kind of massive support for a piece of freeware.
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Old 26th October 2001, 12:26   #17  |  Link
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You could ask to the moderators of Nandub could tell us if the Nandub newbies is succesfully used as it is supposed to be. I'm sure it will be instersting to answer to newbies, cause sometimes it obliged you to search a little bit, and that way you learn too.

If a thread is going less "newbie", we should refer to a moderator to move it to "DVD2SVCD more experienced".

Besides, it could be interesting to move/copy some common threads from here to this newbie forum, mark them as sticky (eventually rename the thread so it will be more explicit). We all know that sometimes newbies don't want to search (until search is disabled). Some sticky threads for common subjects, maybe 10, is a solution (suggestion to go to spain, cce freezes, checksum errors, OGT first time over in i-author...), plus of course Q&A and links to guides.

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Old 26th October 2001, 15:24   #18  |  Link
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A newbie forum with a fresh moderator is a very good idea. Would be good a warning in the "dvd2svcd advanced forum":Put your question here ONLY if you are sure that it isn't a newbie question or something like that.

The moderator of the newbie forum can judge if the question is a newbie question or isn't and, if it is not, he can remove the question for the advanced forum.
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Old 27th October 2001, 03:33   #19  |  Link
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How about a free beer


Now thinking about it, we did come a long way in such a short time.

Remeber Doom9's list of movies and the list of unflaskable movies?

And Remember the very first time we tried to figure out batch, DDog? That was early this summer right? Wow that was stone ages ago.

Many thanks to all the programers/hackers/volunteers out there, for teaching me so many things. And I barely have to ask any questions, because I am a very patient man, eventually, someday, someone got to answer my question(Just look at my post ). Hopefully the newcomers gets this msg.
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Old 27th October 2001, 22:17   #20  |  Link
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I think a copy of this thread belongs in the newbies board. In fact, I think at least the first part made by DDogg belongs there. That was one nice post...
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