Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Announcements and Chat > General Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 16th October 2002, 09:23   #1  |  Link
AlainDelon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 125
Big Trouble worst utilization of a dual layerdvd?

This dual layer dvd is 4.45Gb wich means they are using about 64Mb of the available 4.37gb second layer.Can you say waste?I guess there can't be much difference in cost to the studios between single and dual layer dvd's(or they are trying to mess with us).
__________________
We have clearance,Clarence.
AlainDelon is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 15:24   #2  |  Link
slk001
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 399
I know what you mean... I have seen a one hour TV special that took up 4GB on a single (layer) disk. It was in B&W even.

The guys in Hollywood seem to be clowns to me. If they really wanted to "bust" the pirates and copiers, then they should lower their costs by dumping their "copy protections", then lowering their prices on all DVD's to $4.99. The resulting dramatic increase in sales volume would more than offset their present $12.00+ profit margin. This is simply the law of supply and demand. But I guess elementry economics is one skill the whole crowd lacks (I guess that they don't teach this at clown school).
slk001 is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 15:49   #3  |  Link
mpucoder
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,530
Are you certain that it is a dual layer? Stamped DVDs can exceed 4.37G (example, Das Boot R1, is a dual sided DVD. Side 1 is 4.41G, or 4,746,149,888 bytes)
mpucoder is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 17:58   #4  |  Link
brett
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 177
Quote:
Originally posted by slk001
The guys in Hollywood seem to be clowns to me. If they really wanted to "bust" the pirates and copiers, then they should lower their costs by dumping their "copy protections", then lowering their prices on all DVD's to $4.99. The resulting dramatic increase in sales volume would more than offset their present $12.00+ profit margin. This is simply the law of supply and demand. But I guess elementry economics is one skill the whole crowd lacks (I guess that they don't teach this at clown school).
Those are some pretty harsh statements coming from somebody just randomly making up numbers. You really don't know what you're talking about. The fact is that if there is one thing those Hollywood "clowns" do know, it's economics. Besides, at this point, DVD piracy is so much of a niche that it basically has no effect on the market. There would have to be a few hundred thousand more people with DVD burners to catch anybody's attention. Still, you can rest assured that you're breaking the law, so don't try to justify it by saying "I'd buy the DVD if it was $4.99." Well, of course you would, since the DVD-R cost you $2 or $3 and it took you several hours to make! Piracy is the only time that people use that insane argumet: I'd pay for things if you'd just make the retail price as low as stealing it! That's asinine, and you're just trying to make yourself feel better because DVD's are so easy to steal. If you want to bitch about things being overpriced, why don't you just have the balls to go steal a car? Those are hard to pay for! I do not, however, see anybody taking out a 5-year loan for entertainment spending. DVD's are already cheap.

If DVD's all cost $4.99, then that'd be a little wierd that audio CD's still cost $15. I suppose you would also suggest lowering music CD's to $3. Then what should VHS tapes cost, $2? So now I guess you'd like to see every place that rents movies go out of business? You're suggesting that people should be able to purchase movies that they don't even like very much for less than the price to rent them.

On top of that, you're suggesting that DVD's should cost less than the price of admission to a theater. That would completely screw things up, too. Studios would take much longer to release films on DVD, because the promise of a $5 DVD would make more people think twice about seeing it at a theater, and then by the time it did come out on DVD, they probably wouldn't bother to buy it, because they never saw it in the theater and they never rented it, so they really don't even care about it anymore.

So now you'll probably say that theaters should lower ticket prices, too, right? Well, theaters already pay their employees less than any other industry I can think of and they're still in financial trouble. Those guys have to clean up crap you leave on the floor, and they're barely making minimum wage, because 70% or more of the ticket price goes back to the studio. If you want to argue that the economics of first-run movies should be restructured, that's one place I'll aggree with you. Second-run theaters are already cheap, although they're mostly out of business these days. They charge $1 or $2 and have very tight margins. They are often showing movies that are already out on DVD or will be in a few weeks, so lowering DVD's to $5 without pushing release dates back significantly would be one more thing for them to compete with.

Obviously you have no clue about how supply and demand actually works, because $5 DVD's would be ridiculous. People who like a movie and want to own it are generally going to go pay $20 for it. When they're selling DVD's cheap, it's because it's a bad movie that they are trying to peddle as a "bargain" because otherwise nobody would want to buy it. The DVD's you see in the $9.99 section are not good movies. The price of music CD's is often said to be too high, but by comparison people are not generally unhappy with the price of DVD's. To the contrary, you can usually buy a new release movie on VHS for less than an audio CD these days. You seem to be the only one complaining about the price of movies, and you pirate them anyway, so you are not important to the industry. You probably wouldn't go buy a DVD unless it actually did cost $5, which as I've already stated would be ridiculous.

The simple fact is that people do not think DVD's are too expensive. Most people don't own a hundred movies, they just own their favorite ones, and $20 is not overpriced. The people who buy tons of movies are the ones who love movies and would probably buy almost as many if they cost $50. Some movies make significant money through DVD sales. Movies like Office Space and Super Troopers didn't even become popular until they were out of theaters. Almost every person I know who owns a DVD player, even ones who have less than 10 movies, own Office Space. Hopefully the success of Office Space will make Mike Judge want to make more things that don't suck quite as much as King of the Hill. If that was a $5 DVD, it would have to sell over five times as many copies to make the same amount of money, and I defy you to submit any evidence of that being even a remote possibility.

If you really loved movies and didn't have enough money, you'd just buy the VHS version, because those are dirt cheap these days. But that's not good enough for you, you need the DVD version. You have no room whatsoever to complain. YOU are the clown.

The only time I've even seen intelligent posts on this subject are here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16220
brett is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 19:13   #5  |  Link
TRILIGHT
Registered User
 
TRILIGHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,215
Quote:
Originally posted by brett
The only time I've even seen intelligent posts on this subject are here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16220
This is all you had to say in the first place. At any rate, this entire thread does not belong in the DVD Authoring forum and will be moved. Take care to confine such discussions to the appropriate forum in the future. Thanks!
__________________
Das UberGuide lives! Check it out! --> HTTP://DVDGUIDES.TRILIGHT.NET
TRILIGHT is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 20:00   #6  |  Link
slk001
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 399
Wow... pretty wordy response from an obvious Hollywood clown. If you had read my original post, you would have seen no mention of my copying DVD's. All of my DVD work is converting laserdisks that are not available on DVD to DVD-R. I guess that you would call me a pirate for that... except the courts have said otherwise (the ol' Fair Use doctrine - or haven't you heard of that?).

Quote:
I'd pay for things if you'd just make the retail price as low as stealing it!
Not once did I say that I would buy the DVD's even at $4.99. It's just that a DVD can be pressed, packaged and out the door for less than $2.00 a copy (in their large numbers). You're correct on one thing, though, I simply "guessed" (made up, in your terms) on the $12.00 profit margin - it probably is much better than this (the total profit chain). It is the consumer who really gets it "stuck" to him. You are probably right that the clowns in Hollywood know economics - especially the "charge what the market will bear" part.

I'm sure that you believe that $18+ for a Hollywood release is a "fair deal" to the consumer. I'm equally sure that 90%+ of the consumers would disagree with your assessment of "what is fair". If consumers believe that your "system" is unfair, or ripping them off, then they will show no remorse in attempting to circumvent your "system" and resort to what you call (although technically and legally correct) "stealing". This is simple human "tit-for-tat" nature. Trying to make them feel bad by telling them how much this is hurting the industry is like trying to get people to stop drinking just by making it illegal, or make drivers obey a ridiculously low speed limit without cops at every mile.

Your justification of the cost of the DVD through theater ticket costs, the plight of the "poor, down-trodden theater worker", CD costs, rental outlet costs and VHS tape costs (where the hell did this come from???), although colorful, is completely irrelavent. I guess that this is the same type of arguement that the buggy whip industry tried at the beginning of the 20th century.

I could go on and on, but this would be wasting my time talking to a brick like you. The early computer software industry thought like you Hollywood clowns do now, 15 or so years ago. They learned about supply and demand just like you probably will - the hard way.
slk001 is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 20:18   #7  |  Link
TRILIGHT
Registered User
 
TRILIGHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,215
On a side note (although related), it is a little known fact that when Compact Disc was first introduced in the consumer world back around 1980, it was said that they would drop in price. The industry made a big deal about how it would lower the overall cost and that once CD's proliferated the market, the cost would drop from the ~$20 it was.

Surprise! They never did drop the price despite this being touted as a big reason to go to Compact Disc. It's typical money-grubbing executive BS. When they realized people would keep paying it, they felt no incentive to drop the price. As far as I am concerned, they've been raping us for years much in the same manner the tobacco industry did. I personally feel that they get what they deserve.
__________________
Das UberGuide lives! Check it out! --> HTTP://DVDGUIDES.TRILIGHT.NET
TRILIGHT is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 20:51   #8  |  Link
brett
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 177
Quote:
Originally posted by slk001
This is simple human "tit-for-tat" nature. Trying to make them feel bad by telling them how much this is hurting the industry is like trying to get people to stop drinking just by making it illegal, or make drivers obey a ridiculously low speed limit without cops at every mile.
First off, you could at least come up with a more interesting name than "Hollywood clown" to keep calling me. It loses its sting after the 10th time you say it.

I'm not trying to make anyone "feel bad." Your argument is jumping all over the place. What does law enforcement have to do with ethics? Now you're suggesting that you might as well break the law if you're not going to get caught. I don't care if you do or don't pirate. It is simply nauseating, though, to keep hearing your pathetic justifications for people who do. First you're whining about the price of DVD's, and now you continue to whine that $18+ is not a "fair deal" for a DVD, and that it's OK to steal if you feel you're being ripped off. If people are going to pirate movies, they need to at least admit what they're doing and not say, "Well, it's OK because..."

I don't have to justify the price of a DVD. They can charge what they want for it. It's not something you actually need. I was simply trying to put some perspective on how the whole industry works together. You can't just arbitrarily reduce the cost of DVD's to $4.99 like you suggest without considering the impact on the rest of the industry.

Why can't I bring up the cost of VHS tapes? You are the one suggesting that the average person is dirt poor and starved for entertainment. You're saying people are being completely screwed-over by being charged $20 for a DVD. If that's going to be your argument, I can't help but bring up VHS tapes. The indigent can still pay $13 for a movie, dinner at McDonalds, and a couple Trojans and have a great evening in the trailer with their VCR.

Where were you in the early 1980's when VHS movies cost $100? You still never answered any of my questions. Why do you think $20 is too much for a DVD? Please do everyone a favor and stop trying to pretend you know something about economics. If it costs $2 to manufactore a DVD (the price is less, actually), that obviously does not imply that they can break even by selling it for $2. By your logic, magazines should cost $0.05. That argument works in a theoretical situation with perfect efficiency, infinte demand, zero inefficiency, and zero investment. It quickly falls apart in reality, though.

Even if you're not considering ANY costs of making the movie and producing the DVD, there are obviously many expenses involved in making a DVD beyond the cost of materials and packaging. It only takes a little common sense to see that almost everything you're saying is ridiculous. Before you try to argue about economics and the movie industry, why don't you try to learn something about at least one or the other?

There are two types of people:

1. Assholes who are honest and know they're assholes.
2. Assholes who are constanatly trying to tell themselves that they are good people and have a legitimate reason for everything they do to screw someone else.

I must say that people who fall under #1 are much more tolerable. People who fall under category #2 are impossible to argue with, because they'll just come up with some new irrelevant thing to whine about every time. They can't ever be objective, and any debate turns into ridiculous and irrelevant ad hominem attacks. You obviously fall under category #2.

That said, there's really no point in continuing.
brett is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 21:07   #9  |  Link
mpucoder
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,530
Looks like the rating just went R.

Just for the record, I am no pirate, none of my copies have ever left my house, and I own the originals.
But, I do understand economics. I understand this one fact, that despite the industry's claims to losing millions (or is the claim billions?) that they are making money. More than enough to justify the price of a DVD. If they were losing so much, they would cease to make DVDs altogether, afterall, there is no other product that benefits from DVD being a loss-leader.
One other reality, price does affect piracy. Not just the justification, but the quantity of piracy, as high prices create high demand for a cheap alternative. It's obvious from this, too, that the level of piracy is at an acceptable level for Hollywood.

Now, can someone tell me what this has to do with the subject? And why this thread shouldn't be closed for being an off-topic vulgar flame war?
mpucoder is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 21:16   #10  |  Link
brett
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 177
Where are you getting the idea that CD's still cost $20? There are a couple stores like Sam Goody where they cost $19, but I certainly don't see anybody buying anything there. CDNOW has almost everything for $13.29, and Amazon has most new stuff for $12.98 (with free shipping if you get 2).

I'm not saying the record industry isn't run by idiots... I was particularly amused when they were making such a big deal about Napster a couple years ago, record sales actually went up two years in a row. They had to wait until the economy got bad (and obviously people bought less music), then they started saying it was because of people downloading music.

Quote:
Originally posted by TRILIGHT
As far as I am concerned, they've been raping us for years much in the same manner the tobacco industry did. I personally feel that they get what they deserve.
How did the tobacco industry rape people? Are you suggesting that people didn't used to know that smoking was bad for you? Even in the 50's when tobacco ads were all over the place, people weren't complete morons. Everybody's mom tells them not to smoke. The first few times you try smoking and have a coughing fit, you get the idea that it's not exactly a healthy endeavor. You can't blame that on Marlboro. You wanted a cigarette so they sold you one.

At this point, you really have to admit that the tobacco industry is the one getting raped by the government. If the government wants to make smoking illegal, they need to just go ahead and make it illegal. But no, they don't care. They just use it as an excuse to tax the hell out of people. Seeing as more than half the cost of a pack of cigarettes is tax, who do you really think is getting raped here? On top of that, now the government gives out free advertising against tobacco. Those commercials you see telling you "Big tobacco wants to kill you" are PSA's that networks have to air for free. Also, the government was the one that brought most lawsuits against tobacco companies. So, they sue tobacco, they advertise against tobacco, but they're certainly happy to let them sell cigarettes as long as they give up half the profits. It's great to see the government behaving like the mafia.

It's not just tobacco, though. When you buy a bottle of Jack Daniels, about 75% of your money is going to the government for tax. It gets taxed every step of the way, and the manufacturer is only getting about $5. If the government ever legalized marijuana, they would tax it so much that it would cost more.
brett is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 21:43   #11  |  Link
TRILIGHT
Registered User
 
TRILIGHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,215
Quote:
Originally posted by mpucoder
Now, can someone tell me what this has to do with the subject? And why this thread shouldn't be closed for being an off-topic vulgar flame war?
It's WAY off topic now as it just seems like Brett likes to rant. I moved the thread to the "General Discussion" forum since it was a much more appropriate place for it. I thought that perhaps it would turn back to the topic at hand but apparently it has not. I would close it myself but I am not a mod for this forum. As for Brett, everyone has a viewpoint but he's dancing awfully close to the line for obtaining a strike. Play nice.
__________________
Das UberGuide lives! Check it out! --> HTTP://DVDGUIDES.TRILIGHT.NET
TRILIGHT is offline  
Old 16th October 2002, 21:54   #12  |  Link
Ookami
Xe-Rotaredom
 
Ookami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Croatia
Posts: 1,029
This has been discussed numerous times before.

One of the bigger threads:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16220

Just do a forum search.

Thread closed.
__________________
"Only those who attempt the absurd achieve the impossible."
Ookami is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 20:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.