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Old 9th April 2005, 17:46   #1  |  Link
Sujao
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Is 5.1 sound in old movies worth keeping it?

Hi all!

I am encoding the dvd "Amadeus". This movie was in theathers in 1984. The dvd contains a ac3 audio stream with 5.1 sound and also a 2.0 stereo stream. I wonder how they made this stream. I dont think there were dolby digital theathers at this time so the movie must have been shot in stereo. Or did they recorded several raw channels and are able to produce real 5.1 sound?

To make a long story short: Is it worth to rip the 5.1 sound of old movies or is synthetically produced and not better than the usuall stereo 2.0 stream.

I dont mean what would be the best source for a mp3 stream altough this I would like to know too. I really want to know I its worth keeping the six channels.
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Old 9th April 2005, 18:52   #2  |  Link
unskinnyboy
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If you look at the IMDB listing for Amadeus, it says the following about the audio:

Sound Mix: 70 mm 6-Track (70 mm prints) / Dolby

This should help you make up your mind.
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Old 9th April 2005, 19:40   #3  |  Link
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No, actually it doesnt. What does "70mm" mean?
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Old 9th April 2005, 19:51   #4  |  Link
niamh
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To answer the general question, I think it's a question of taste. I personally always revert to the original sound. I might think different with a home cinema setup, who knows? Except for mono tracks, in which case I am a staunch supporter of keeping them mono.

Quote:
I dont mean what would be the best source for a mp3 stream altough this I would like to know too.
For what it's worth, manono recommends using 2 channel tracks for mp3 audio in his AutoGK guide.
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No, actually it doesnt. What does "70mm" mean?
I don't know, but i think it was the 6 tracks bit you were meant to look at. The original is Dolby 5.1, and not stereo.
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Old 9th April 2005, 20:13   #5  |  Link
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I agree with niamh about this being about personal preferences. If you want and can enjoy a 5.1 soundtrack, keep it. Else convert it to MP3/OGG/AAC/Whatever. Simple. I also keep mono as such since converting it to stereo will output the same stream via 2 channels which does nothing to your listening experience. The movie in point 'Amadeus', was shot in 5.1 Dolby digital surround sound.
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Originally posted by Sujao
I dont mean what would be the best source for a mp3 stream altough this I would like to know too.
I really didn't understand what you were asking here. Can you expound on this please?
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Originally posted by Sujao
No, actually it doesnt. What does "70mm" mean?
Here is some info about 70 mm movies.
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Old 9th April 2005, 22:39   #6  |  Link
Sujao
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Quote:
The movie in point 'Amadeus', was shot in 5.1 Dolby digital surround sound.
That is what I wanted to know. I just wasnt sure that a movie was shot in 5.1 in the year 1984 already. I could imagine that it was shot in 2.0 and then somehow synthetically "stretched" to 5.1

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I really didn't understand what you were asking here. Can you expound on this please?
What I mean is: If I have a DVD with a 5.1 and a 2.0 stream and I want to have a stereo mp3. Should I concert the 5.1 to mp3 or the 2.0.

Although imdb says 5.1 I don't know if they refer to the DVD or the original movie like it was in theathers.
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Old 10th April 2005, 00:41   #7  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sujao
That is what I wanted to know. I just wasnt sure that a movie was shot in 5.1 in the year 1984 already. I could imagine that it was shot in 2.0 and then somehow synthetically "stretched" to 5.1
Most of the times with old movies, that's what they do. Output the same stream thru multiple channels and claim it's 5.1. The poor consumer is none the wiser.
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Originally posted by Sujao What I mean is: If I have a DVD with a 5.1 and a 2.0 stream and I want to have a stereo mp3. Should I concert the 5.1 to mp3 or the 2.0.
I am no audio expert. I have done both (6Ch AC3->2Ch MP3 & 2Ch AC3->2Ch MP3) resulting in the same filesize and little or no difference (atleast to my ears). However, I saw this in the DivX forum which might shed some light into what you are asking.
Quote:
Originally posted by Sujao
Although imdb says 5.1 I don't know if they refer to the DVD or the original movie like it was in theathers.
If the movie is 5.1, I don't see a reason why the DVD shouldn't be.

P.S: Shall I tell you simplest thing to end your confusion? Do both and see which sounds best to your ears. You cannot decide which is best for -you- just by listening to others.

Last edited by unskinnyboy; 10th April 2005 at 00:44.
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Old 10th April 2005, 01:06   #8  |  Link
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Quote:
Most of the times with old movies, that's what they do. Output the same stream thru multiple channels and claim it's 5.1. The poor consumer is none the wiser.
I am thinking the same. Then it would be no use to rip the 5.1 sound because its the same as 2.0. And if you play stereo on a 5.1 system it distributes them over all the speakers anyway.

Do you know a way how to find out if its REAL 5.1?

Quote:
P.S: Shall I tell you simplest thing to end your confusion? Do both and see which sounds best to your ears. You cannot decide which is best for -you- just by listening to others.
Well, I dont have a 5.1 speaker system yet so I cant hear if the 5.1 of Amadeus is a genuine 5.1 signal. Still I would like to keep 5.1 sound as I am planning to buy one soon.
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Old 10th April 2005, 01:43   #9  |  Link
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Here is the Amazon listing for the R1 DVD and according to it:

Available Audio Tracks: English (Dolby Digital 5.1), French (Dolby Digital 2.0 Surround)

Now why didn't I think of looking in Amazon before? :/

AND, the real way to find out if you are still skeptical is to actually play it on a surround/home theater system.
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Old 10th April 2005, 01:57   #10  |  Link
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Quote:
Here is the Amazon listing for the R1 DVD and according to it:

Available Audio Tracks: English (Dolby Digital 5.1), French (Dolby Digital 2.0 Surround)
You probably didnt understand me because of my bad english: Just because its on DVD this way it doesnt mean the movie was originally recorded this way.

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AND, the real way to find out if you are still skeptical is to actually play it on a surround/home theater system.
Agree.
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Old 10th April 2005, 03:03   #11  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sujao
You probably didnt understand me because of my bad english: Just because its on DVD this way it doesnt mean the movie was originally recorded this way.
For the last time..

IMDB lists the movie as 5.1 --> means the actual movie was shot in 5.1
Amazon lists the DVD as 5.1 --> means the DVD was authored with 5.1

I don't know how to explain this any more, any better.
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Old 10th April 2005, 03:21   #12  |  Link
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Sorry for my bad english.

Many old movies can keep the original tracks with the music/effects and dialogs separated (necessary for translation to other languages) then now is possible to make a 5.1 with a variable quality. If the original tracks are stereo and music and effects are separated, well remastered can obtain a good 5.1.

I suggest, if you don't want to spend MB in ac3, to use the stream 5.1 with a downmix Dolby Surround Prologic to a stereo mp3. Many sound systems (actual receivers, ...) can decode this mp3 and return any kind of surround to your movies.
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Old 11th April 2005, 00:54   #13  |  Link
Sycho
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so, these are the facts:

1) Many movies use the oringinal elements for 5.1 remixes
2) Some of the 5.1 remixes use the oringinal 4channel master from the dolby surround track, so it's 3/1 played over 3/2/1 with monoral surrounds. It's a diescret dolby surround tracks basically.
3) Other remixes, like the terminator, use very few original elements but have execlent remixes.

My advice is, that if your going to use a surround set, use the 5.1, if a 2channel, use the dolby surround track


format layouts:

70mm
5/1

70mm Dolby
3/1/2

70mm Dolby SS
3/2/2

35mm Mag 4track
3/1

35mm Mono
1/0

35mm Stereo
2/0

35mm Dolby NR
2/0 > Noise Reduction > 2/0 or 1/0 > Noise Reduction > 1/0

35mm Dolby Stereo
2/0 > Decoded > 3/1

35mm Dolby SR
2/0 > Noise Reduction > Decoded > 3/1

35mm Dolby Digital
3/2/1

35mm dts
3/2/1 or 2/0 > decoded > 3/1/

35mm SDDS
3/2/1 or 5/2/1

35mm Dolby Digital EX
3/2/1 > decoded > 3/3/1

35mm dts es
3/2/1 > decoded > 3/3/1


sorry for the spelling, don't have a spellchecker.
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