Samsung TV and HTPC

[pirlouy]

Hello,

I've done some tests I've never really done since I'm rather a casual "plug & play" user. Maybe you're all aware of what is below, maybe you'll learn something but I do not pretend to have a lot of knowledge, it's just information I share.
I have a Samsung LCD TV from 2009 (xxBxxx) but I think the concept is the same for 2013 TVs.

When using good renderer like madVR, you expect your display to let madVR do all images treatment. But unfortunately, there's a good chance your TV does a lot of post-processing stuff which will interfere with what you would have expected.

Indeed, Post-processing is done on all your HDMI entries. There's one exception and you have to respect these conditions:

1) You have to use HDMI 1 (tagged as "DVI") entry. All others have post-processing forced.
2) You have to go to a special menu in your TV to rename this HDMI 1 entry to "PC" or "PC DVI".
3) You have to use 1920x1080 @ 60Hz only. Don't try to use 24 or 50Hz, or you'll have post-processing enabled. I know some of you use 24Hz by habit/reflex, but you have to be aware of that.

If you respect all these conditions, then the display will act as a monitor and you should notice it in menu with a lot of menus "grayed out". The only difference I've noticed with another monitor, it's a BGR one; I think RGB is most common for monitors.

Some settings you'll have to checked if you use this mode: madVR has to be settled in 0-255 color range. Try to disable the maximum of AMD/nVidia options. In your TV menu, you might have a HDMI black level, you have to use "Normal" and not "Low". Try to use test files to verify no calibration error, or even LCD monitor calibration websites.

--

So, what is the best ? TV as a monitor with madVR doing all stuff, or let Samsung does the post-processing ? Good question, and I think it will depend on people.

In my case, I've tried to compare and it seems image quality is better when in "monitor" mode and madVr does everything, but there are so much post-processing options with Samsung (I've tried to disable all but some are always active like the dynamic contrast APL even if you disable "dynamic contrast" in options).
The only drawback I see is the fact it's 60Hz only. With 24 or 25 fps videos I guess it's not the ideal. I've tried to disable "Smooth Motion Frame Rate Conversion" (FRC), and indeed, the first seconds you really notice the 3:2 pulldown, but it's just an habit, after some seconds, your eyes get used to. With FRC enabled, you don't notice it since the beginning, even with 25fps videos, so to me, it looks like TV settled as monitor is the best choice.

About post-processing, if you want to really notice Samsung post-processing, you can use the famous AVS black clipping test file. This file show some bars blinking at the right of the screen. With Samsung post-processing, even if you disable all the possible options, you will see all the screen blinking: just display the Samsung menu and you will notice this very menu blinks too.
There are also some anti-aliasing post-processing always enabled: just open a text file and you will notice it. Of course you'll say it's not important we do not read small text when watching movie, but I guess it can interfere with madshi upscaling algorithms.

I don't know about other brands, but like they often mimic competitors, I would not be surprised if we have the same behavior. It's too bad there's not a 24 or 50Hz monitor mode, but maybe there's a technical reason...

PS: It's strange to sell a "Game Mode" when there's still post-processing slowing down rendering (not good for Online FPS). But I guess the "Game Mode" is here to enable specific algorithms like anti-aliasing which often is the weakness of video cards / consoles.

Sorry for grammar or spelling (PM if something hurts your eyes).

[huhn]

I don't know about other brands, but like they often mimic competitors, I would not be surprised if we have the same behavior. It's too bad there's not a 24 or 50Hz monitor mode, but maybe there's a technical reason...

just no my "old" Phillips tv build in 2011 week 11 got pc mode for all hdmi inputs and is unlimited rgb 4:4:4. supports 23, 24, 25, 29, 30, 50, 59, 60 hz as input without post processing.

i'm pretty sure nearly all newer tv's can do the same.

have you checked your tv i it is a 4:2:2 or 4:2:2 ? http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png

my tv is only 4:4:4 in pc mode.

[Qaq]

I suppose all TV matrixes are x60 (or x50) anyway, so you can't do much there. You only can try to find a lesser evil for the whole setup.

[huhn]

but they do a pretty nice job on displaying it right.
you can some times read that tvs use 96 hz for 24 mode so not sure...

but there is no real evil anymore

[pirlouy]

My TV (in monitor mode) is in 4:2:2 according to this image. Is there a setting in madVR to adapt for this case ?
So... It looks like some brands are better when using PC Mode. Do you know some brands who offer a 24Hz through 96Hz ?

[huhn]

My TV (in monitor mode) is in 4:2:2 according to this image. Is there a setting in madVR to adapt for this case ?

no

all i know is that it works fine with my.

a friend of me has an older Phillips (i was about 3-4 times a expansive as my was) i think from 2008 there is no pc mode but 23 hz was no problem.

23 hz in windows is 24000/1001 nearly all bds are 23 hz not 24 with 24 hz you get a frame drop every ~42 sec.

to be totally honest i haven't seen a tv who can't handle 23 hz today. but a lot can't display 4:4:4.
i don't know what my display did. but some times you can read this "24hz (5:5 pulldown)" all philips have a pc mode you can read about this in the Manuel but new display should do this perfectly too i heared sharp got problems with 4:4:4 i was interested in a Sharp Aquos LC-60LE652E but all i read about it was it can't handle 4:4:4 so i gave up on it.

[maco07]

I had set my rig on DVI-PC with full RGB 4:4:4 for desktop and gaming and use Autofrequency to play movies in 24Hz mode (to take advantage of anti blur "Clear" mode and local dimming), just with right click, play with Autofrequency. Then autofrequency calls Potplayer.

[pirlouy]

Originally Posted by huhn

but all i read about it was it can't handle 4:4:4 so i gave up on it.

Where do you find this kind of information ? It's hard to find useful information in the manual. In general there are only approximations, and no technical details.

For the record, the TV I got is able to display 23,24,25,30,50,59,60 Hz, but not in "monitor" mode and it is what I don't like. But to be honest, I don't see judder with madVR FRC.
For the 4:2:2 thing, I guess it's not really a problem since Blu-Ray are in 4:2:0, but maybe I underestimate this.

[huhn]

For the 4:2:2 thing, I guess it's not really a problem since Blu-Ray are in 4:2:0, but maybe I underestimate this.

it's not the end of the world but the way a pc works and the way madvr works is the "problem"

if you play a bd in madvrit gets yuv 4:2:0 this is upscailed to 4:4:4 and after resizing and so on dithered to rgb24

but your tv gets a rgb 24 pic and changed this to yuv 4:2:2 again and later to 4:4:4 and rgb again... this is not the best way to do this...

the difference in a pc game is very visible!

Where do you find this kind of information ? It's hard to find useful information in the manual. In general there are only approximations, and no technical details.

i just read about this in a forum. from people who got one.
but a tv with pc mode is way more likely to support 4:4:4 then a tv without. the best way to find a tv with 4:4:4 and unlimited support is to look a round in forums or ask in forums user who got one.

For the record, the TV I got is able to display 23,24,25,30,50,59,60 Hz, but not in "monitor" mode and it is what I don't like. But to be honest, I don't see judder with madVR FRC.

yeah madvr does an awesome job with smooth motion! there is a high chance that tvs do the same like madvr.

[pirlouy]

Originally Posted by huhn

but your tv gets a rgb 24 pic and changed this to yuv 4:2:2 again and later to 4:4:4 and rgb again... this is not the best way to do this...

Are there some TV who handle 4:4:4 RGB without this kind of conversion ? Or you have to have a RGB-> YUV-> RGB (without loss if TV handle 4:4:4) ?

(Thank you for all your information)

[Asmodian]

There are some TVs that do not have any conversions, at least as far as anyone can tell.

Not that I am willing to name specific brands & models.

[pirlouy]

Please do !
Huhn seems to have a good feeling with Philips TV. It looks to me it is not the same for Samsung (only 1 HDMI able to be used as monitor, and only 60Hz, and maybe 4:2:2 but not confirmed on recent models).

[maco07]

Originally Posted by pirlouy

Please do !
Huhn seems to have a good feeling with Philips TV. It looks to me it is not the same for Samsung (only 1 HDMI able to be used as monitor, and only 60Hz, and maybe 4:2:2 but not confirmed on recent models).

Anyone can test it with a pattern like this:

http://i.imgur.com/gTsKnxk.png

Edit: image link

[pirlouy]

Edit: thanks maco07
huhn also gave a test image from madshi: http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png

In my case, my Samsung TV is a 4:2:2.

[huhn]

Plus huhn also gave a test image from madshi: http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png

thank madshi! by the way it is easy to find:

If you want to test whether your display supports RGB in 4:2:0, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, you can use this test image. Make sure you display it with 1:1 pixel mapping, otherwise it won't work.

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1271414&postcount=1

Huhn seems to have a good feeling with Philips TV.

that's way i got this one. but i'm pretty sure this isn't spezial anymore.

but there is also a problem with these tvs all gpu i have ever tested think this display is limited color range. so i need the madNvLevelsTweaker, reg hacks with intel or i have to change this in the gpu driver from amd. if you don't know this you get milk black and bad white.

[Qaq]

Originally Posted by pirlouy

my Samsung TV is a 4:2:2.

Did you try to set it to PC mode (HDMI input to "PC", but better read the manual)?

[huhn]

he called that monitor mode so yeah he did that!

[hello_hello]

Originally Posted by pirlouy

I've done some tests I've never really done since I'm rather a casual "plug & play" user. Maybe you're all aware of what is below, maybe you'll learn something but I do not pretend to have a lot of knowledge, it's just information I share.
I have a Samsung LCD TV from 2009 (xxBxxx) but I think the concept is the same for 2013 TVs.

Well thanks for sharing as I've learned something.
My TV's a Samsung Plasma, around 2 years old. The manual does little but state the obvious, and I've always wondered why HDMI 1 is the "PC input", given it never seemed any different to the other HDMI inputs.
I'd already set everything up according to the conditions you listed, but I generally run it at 50Hz (I use Reclock to watch everything at 25fps). So I switched to 60Hz and checked the picture menu, and sure enough.... it looks exactly like the menu when using the VGA input. I think the same menu items are greyed out with the exception black level. The "Movie" picture mode is no longer available, just as it's not when using VGA.

For me, displaying a still picture (especially a lot of white) at 60Hz seems to produce a flicker, similar to CRT refresh rate flicker, I guess. Maybe that's a plasma thing or just my brain. I don't see it at 50Hz.
There does seem to be some post-processing happening at 50Hz.
The anti-aliasing can be seen when viewing text.
The AVS black clipping test file (assuming I found the correct one) doesn't cause any blinking in either TV or monitor mode, but when displaying a window with a white background there's an obvious difference between the two. The TV seems to reduce the brightness according to how much white there is on the screen. That process is very stable in PC mode. In TV mode, often after resizing a window the white background will flash a little before it settles down.
The picture is sharper in TV mode (displaying a still image). I only run the sharpness at 20% anyway, but it surprised me I had to reduce it to 0% before it looked about the same as PC mode (50% sharpness by default).

At least now when (very) occasionally I think I see a bit of a jump in brightness during a static scene I'll know I'm not imaging things.

So can someone tell me..... under advanced picture settings there's a Colour Space option and the choices are "Auto" or "Native".
The TV's "tooltip" describes Auto as "setting the colour range depending on the input source" and Native as "setting a colour range wider than the input video source".
Could someone please tell me what that means?

[hello_hello]

Originally Posted by pirlouy

http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png
In my case, my Samsung TV is a 4:2:2.

According to that image, I guess mine is too (HDMI PC mode).

[pirlouy]

Originally Posted by hello_hello

So can someone tell me..... under advanced picture settings there's a Colour Space option and the choices are "Auto" or "Native".
Could someone please tell me what that means?

When I had search the Internet for this, I had not found a lot of information. If I remember well, "Native" is Samsung attempt to have a better display, but often it's not optimum and people recommend "Auto".
If you open Paint, try to display some "known" color (like blue, yellow, red, green) and choose what seems to be the best to your eyes.

When I was using "Native", Yellow was ugly, with "Auto" it was correct to me. But maybe there have been some improvements from Samsung since then.