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Old 23rd September 2011, 04:18   #21  |  Link
jmac698
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I could suggest that you use 120 frames from tnlmeans, that would take ~3 hours, but at least I can look through frame-by-frame for artefacts, but also I want to take some still frames and do objective measurements metrics (blur+noise).

Also, I went looking for some very high quality frames to test, and finally found them. Here ya go:
http://media.xiph.org/sintel/sintel-1k-png16/
So the question then becomes, how to load 16bit png into Avisynth? Well, that lead to ImageMagick, which finally lead me to write a high bit-depth image import for Avisynth Now we can have extremely high quality noiseless images to test with, but also I know how to add highly accurate modelled film grain.

The final result will be the ultimate reference quality test images, and also measurements of the different tools with objective measurements. Gonna be a lot of work though, but thanks for your efforts so far, we'll have to share some efforts.

Update:
Well I got this far,
Code:
convert %08d.png[8970] -evaluate and 65280 -set filename:f msb%t.bmp +adjoin %[filename:f]

convert %08d.png[8970] -evaluate and 255 -evaluate leftshift 8 -set filename:f lsb%t.bmp +adjoin %[filename:f]
I can do a lot better though.

Last edited by jmac698; 23rd September 2011 at 08:03.
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Old 23rd September 2011, 09:12   #22  |  Link
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Code:
cd /d d:\sintel_rgb48
ffmpeg -f image2 -i %08d.png -pix_fmt yuv444p16le -vcodec rawvideo -an -f rawvideo d:\sintel_raw_yuv\yuv444p16le.yuv

#read_16bit_yuv.avs
LoadPlugin("RawSource26.dll")
LoadPlugin("flash3kyuu_deband.dll")
RawSource("d:\sintel_raw_yuv\yuv444p16le.yuv", width=2048, height=436, fpsnum=24, fpsden=1, pixel_type="i444")
f3kdb_dither(stacked=false)
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Last edited by Chikuzen; 23rd September 2011 at 09:15.
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Old 23rd September 2011, 11:44   #23  |  Link
Nightshiver
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Well, I'll be uploading now, but it will take a long time. Over 10GB of video clips to upload.
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Old 23rd September 2011, 13:39   #24  |  Link
aegisofrime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshiver View Post
Well, I'll be uploading now, but it will take a long time. Over 10GB of video clips to upload.
Thanks for the hard work you put into this!
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Old 24th September 2011, 15:23   #25  |  Link
Nightshiver
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Whew, alright people, the first batch is up. It's the first sample, the one of the blackboard/classroom.

original
http://www.mediafire.com/?dqsoait8r28hf2k

degrainmedianmode0
http://www.mediafire.com/?5ro85gnj4o9y58w

degrainmedianmode1
http://www.mediafire.com/?xpss50humuj4mox

degrainmedianmode2
http://www.mediafire.com/?8ea0modmtounxdx

degrainmedianmode3
http://www.mediafire.com/?5trapye0dn5ar6z

degrainmedianmode4
http://www.mediafire.com/?83880nwa8b38dxw

degrainmedianspecial
http://www.mediafire.com/?o78ce5aa6nc1cso

dfttest
http://www.mediafire.com/?ld0a7t2tdvm7v05

dfttestsigma05
http://www.mediafire.com/?e0u7jp7iqog3fx1

dfttestsigma1
http://www.mediafire.com/?5hnf52rkysahsb6

dfttestsigma3
http://www.mediafire.com/?6cjxwivgqrjbuqa


fft3d pic1
http://www.mediafire.com/?9hc1nph9911on55

fft3d pic2
http://www.mediafire.com/?0d2d6k8wwj5ckwe

fft3d pic3
http://www.mediafire.com/?0bco2tdqhq5j4qt


fft3d pic4
http://www.mediafire.com/?ssr67m3nelakl8x

mcspuds1
http://www.mediafire.com/?21nmy3h6inhpp5t

mcspuds2
http://www.mediafire.com/?xtwak5708eq6qle

mcspuds3
http://www.mediafire.com/?ghnnjhyg2qonbbf

mcspuds4
http://www.mediafire.com/?h0l4v44stlrb4d4

mctemporaldenoiseverylow
http://www.mediafire.com/?ujfx2qoc44h84zn

mctemporaldenoiselow
http://www.mediafire.com/?sb8d1s32fzae32m

mctemporaldenoisemedium
http://www.mediafire.com/?bpfb33o9ze6z642

mctemporaldenoisehigh
http://www.mediafire.com/?pqsli2q5fiwscyp

mctemporaldenoiseveryhigh
http://www.mediafire.com/?ezcka7yyzs1obfa

mdegrain2sad400
http://www.mediafire.com/?daonvq01xd7x2ai

mdegrain3sad400
http://www.mediafire.com/?bgbl9o0g48m8vc8

mvdegrainmultiframes3sad400
http://www.mediafire.com/?edjd42pgzddh78n

removegrain1
http://www.mediafire.com/?lwsj3cg6ujrls55

removegrain5
http://www.mediafire.com/?x2m4pr5g9tjed15

removegrain10
http://www.mediafire.com/?9x32b1gaiai033w

removegrain19
http://www.mediafire.com/?w1cktifn1s9tg6w

ttempsmooth1
http://www.mediafire.com/?nnkwab6cjhs43l5

ttempsmooth2
http://www.mediafire.com/?wpvs532omigb2qp

ttempsmooth3
http://www.mediafire.com/?tc8f9na7bw8mhzz

ttempsmooth4
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WMQOV54P

vaguedenoiser1
http://www.mediafire.com/?v0ptlpjh2tjn9qg

vaguedenoiser2
http://www.mediafire.com/?ec4zylbub0dqyl8

vaguedenoiser3
http://www.mediafire.com/?crwdt03dithc1im
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Old 24th September 2011, 18:43   #26  |  Link
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smdegrain(tr=6,thSAD=600,contrasharp=true,lsb=true,refinemotion=true,prefilter=2)
http://www.mediafire.com/?81o4zz0in25muwr

I also think these tests have no real meaning. You are mixing spatial denoisers, with temporal, and each of them in different strengths. Quality has also many broad interpretations.
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Old 24th September 2011, 19:14   #27  |  Link
Nightshiver
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1) I never tested smdegrain because it is the same thing as mdegrain or mvdegrain.
2) If they have no real meaning, then why are you posting here? I'm glad that you think I'm wasting many hours of my time, but keep it to yourself next time.
3) I am simply showing others what the different options out there do so that they can see what they do. Granted, anyone could do this by themselves, but not everyone is going to try to test every option (or several) to see what fits the bill. This is a quick, or somewhat quicker way of determining what may be the right option for them. Also, what is wrong with mixing different denoisers? I did that on purpose. There is no one option, and many functions deliver different results. (As this should be painfully obvious)
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Old 24th September 2011, 19:39   #28  |  Link
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calm down. Indeed smdegrain is a wrapper of mdegrain, but it can use 16 bit and higher radius with the cretindesalpes mod. Also it adds refinemotion(MRecalculate) which not many wrappers do. Most of your tests involves mdegrain so I add my 2 cents here, but its strange when you also add dfttest, tnlmeans, removegrain, etc
Different sources need different denoisers, here source has a lot of grain, so it's only one example to test denoisers against. I also found mctemporaldenoise to perform the best in this example, mainly because its two-pass option, and fizz noise reduction. I just don't use it much because it requires many plugins, and is slow.
I'm not throwing down your work, I only wasn't agree from the point of view, but its only my opinion. I also did some tests a few months ago.
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Old 24th September 2011, 19:59   #29  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshiver View Post
I'm glad that you think I'm wasting many hours of my time, but keep it to yourself next time.
Let's put it like this: considering that you started a project that is quite time-consuming, perhaps you should have put a little more time beforehand into strategy planning.


Quote:
I am simply showing others what the different options out there do so that they can see what they do.
[...]
Also, what is wrong with mixing different denoisers? I did that on purpose. There is no one option, and many functions deliver different results.
Fair enough. But then, fact is that for purposes of degraining (and your samples are mostly dealing with film grain removal), a spatial filter is a quite different story than a temporal or spatio-temporal denoiser. However, for the non-expert users, it is not even clear which of the filters are of which kind.

Add to that that you are e.g. using FFT3dFilter in 4 different (!) configurations, but all of them are only spatial (albeit the bigger strength in grain removal comes from temporal filtering).
In comparison, dfttest (being a "mightier relative" of FFT3D) is used only in spatio-temporal mode, never in spatial-only. That's not really a "fair" comparison of what either filter possibly can do. It smells more like "random settings".


Again: there's big respect for the effort, but the strategy is lacking.
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Old 24th September 2011, 20:28   #30  |  Link
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Unfortunately, I cannot possibly post every option there is. I understand where you are coming from, but I do not exactly have oodles of time available to me, and so I chose the options that are, for the most part, used most often in the operation of removing film noise.

For instance, I only used the rather simple calls for dfttest because that is what is used most often, both from my experience and what I have been able to find by searching the forum.
The same goes for fft3d. More often than not, the different sigma's are set and very few other options are every messed with, at least from what I could tell. I know that I haven't possibly searched every post or even most of them, so I just never saw many uses of fft3d in any other function other than spatial, and the same for dfttest. I suppose one of the reasons I chose these particular settings was to show off the more popular settings basic users might be prone to messing with and what they might more commonly use.

I know that you know far more than I do, Didee, about the different options that can be used. So, I would like to request that if you have time, would you mind considering providing me some settings that you would find preferable to see?

I will still continue to upload the other samples from 300 and I will also attempt to get the TNLmeans samples up. Judging from these recent posts, I will also try to find out other syntax's for using fft3d in temporal mode and dfttest in spatial mode.

As to the lack of a strategy, I quite agree. I was inspired to do this because of the recent thread for the MeGUI filter revival. But I currently work in the military, and I was only able to conduct my tests at the end of the day where I only have a few hours to myself. My main job takes up most of my time, so I didn't really have the time to try to flesh out more thoughtfulness. I started doing the tests the same night I saw the thread. But I'd still like to press on and continue until it does work

Another edit: @Dogway

I do apologize for the offensive way I responded, but to me, your short comment of "these tests have no real meaning" came off to me as "therefore, this thread has no meaning" and I took it a little insultingly because of the amount of time and effort I had put into this. I don't think I ever saw a thread before about denoiser comparisons like this (as large or trying to be as comprehensive) and so I have nothing to go off of, as I've also never done anything like this before.

Last edited by Nightshiver; 24th September 2011 at 20:33.
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Old 24th September 2011, 20:55   #31  |  Link
jmac698
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@Night
I, for one, congratulate our new denoising overlord! I agree, I've never seen such a comparison before. I was already happy to see some screenshots, but now videos? I can immediately see that mctemporaldenoise is superior than other tested settings, and that's good enough for me!
However I'm still working on my own objective tests, in a more scientific way. I have some very high quality, noiseless video, which is also copyright free, and I want to test artefacting and filmgrain.

@all
About the new tests, starting with a very high quality 16bit, noiseless source, I'd like to run denoisers on it with/without added noise, to measure artefacting/denoising. I can provide usual error measures, ssim, mse, psnr, msu noise estimation, msu blur estimation. I want to focus on one filter at a time and it's settings, to determine which affect denoising. Assuming this leads me to find the best settings for each tool (that the settings form a linear trend in performance), I can then compare tools. Data will be categorized by spatial, temporal, or both. Any other ideas for methodology? Please note I'm researching my own questions, I can't necessarily take every request.
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Old 24th September 2011, 21:48   #32  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac698 View Post
starting with a [...] noiseless source, I'd like to run denoisers on it with/without added noise,
Depending on what you want to test, this scenario may or may not be realistic at all.

- It is a very different ballgame if you have a high-bitrate BR source (with inherently very "clean" grain reproduction), or if you're starting with an oldschool DVD source (or even an SD DVB capture). In a sense, the latter is more difficult, because grain reproduction of bitrate limited Mpeg-2 is not clean. Mpeg-2 compression of (stronger) grain usually introduces lots of DCT noise, and more often than not even DCT flicker (i.e. the low frequencies, or even the DC component, are not temporally stable).
In addition to this, using just "AddGrain(x)" is not a overly good approximation of realworld film grain. These artificial grain generators aim for zero-mean in rather small localisations. Film grain usually is much more "rough" than that - it might be reasonably close to zero-mean too, but only in a (much) bigger spatio-temporal window.

It's a bit like if you can make some zero-to-hundred sprint tests with a new car, but what you really want to find out is if the new car is suited for city traffic or holiday journey: The test is simple and scientific, but practice is much more complex.
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Old 24th September 2011, 22:37   #33  |  Link
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@didée
Good point - however, starting with my source I can compress to mpeg2. Anyhow, this makes me think that we don't want denoisers per se, but 'DCT denoisers', siince the properties could be quite different.
As for noise, I'm not using addnoise - I'm using a carefully measured noise model for specific films. You are right that they have different properties to guassian noise. Now at least I know why you say 'it depends on the source' - you could at least, be referring to the ability to 'DCT denoise' different compressed noise. I could compress pure noise on a flat frame to see what happens?
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Old 25th September 2011, 01:23   #34  |  Link
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_noise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_artifact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_%28electronics%29

@jmac698: For some time now I have been more interested in noise itself than the denoisers. A more pictural example of different types of noise and ways to combat it. From the inherent image grain up to the compressed grain artifacts, through analog electronic devices artifacts.
Code:
             lossless
               |
               |
digital________|_________analog
               |
               |
         heavy compressed
Plus a 3rd axis indicating clean-------------grainy
This is very simplified, since video can go through different mediums, but you get the point.
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Old 25th September 2011, 02:27   #35  |  Link
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I'd be more interested in denoisers comparisons regarding vhs / laserdisc noise. Then after that perhaps a test for DCT-errors noise (mpeg2, mpeg4).

Last edited by Mounir; 25th September 2011 at 07:22.
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Old 25th September 2011, 03:03   #36  |  Link
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I'd have to say in some cases noise is noise - don't get too carried away about there being different 'types' of noise. I would say temporal denoisers for example reduce *anything* which is not consistent with the image, including specks etc. It's possible for even spatial denoisers to be adaptive in some sense; there certainly are tools which gather a 'noise profile'.
I do have some VHS noise available however, so perhaps I can start by discussing the various types of noise and see how they differ.
Off the top of my head, there's about 3 kinds of electronic noise which is based in physics and they have different frequency responses (like pink noise, brown noise etc.).
And by DCT-noise we mean normal noise which was compressed; thus it's not the original noise anymore and will have different properties.
As for digital noise I think quantization errors (round-off noise) is generally white noise.
Noise isn't always bad either, it's useful in different situations. It probably helps with banding without having to dither?

Last edited by jmac698; 25th September 2011 at 03:05.
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Old 25th September 2011, 07:11   #37  |  Link
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@Chikuzen,
Code:
RawSource("d:\sintel_raw_yuv\yuv444p16le.yuv", width=2048, height=436, fpsnum=24, fpsden=1, pixel_type="i444")
There is a problem here - if I want to use the HD version, I should use width=3840, however width is max 2880.
Do you have any suggestions as a workaround?
Thanks
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Old 25th September 2011, 07:54   #38  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac698 View Post
@Chikuzen,
There is a problem here - if I want to use the HD version, I should use width=3840, however width is max 2880.
Do you have any suggestions as a workaround?
Thanks
what?
I must already have changed MAX_WIDTH into 4096.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...59#post1504259
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Last edited by Chikuzen; 25th September 2011 at 07:58.
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Old 25th September 2011, 08:04   #39  |  Link
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@Chikuzen,
Thank you for your speedy reply. I am referring to this file:
http://avisynth.org/warpenterprises/...l_20060728.zip
I see the line you are referring to:
Code:
#define maxwidth 2880
However, I do not have a setup to compile plugins at the moment. Do you have a compiled mod available?
Do you see any reason to restrict the width? In fact we need even higher to support all samples. There are even some 4k files available. It's only gonna get bigger too.
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Old 25th September 2011, 08:30   #40  |  Link
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RawSource26_max_width_65536.zip
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