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Old 3rd January 2012, 08:37   #241  |  Link
IceB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nand chan View Post
Rec709 is simply incorrect. The black levels you are seeing are unnaturally bright. It's supposed to be as dark as 2.4. If 2.4 is too dark you can try 2.2 or maybe 2.1 instead, but definitely don't use Rec709.

The reason you're experiencing the problem is probably because your TV doesn't have very good detail in the dark regions in the first place. I personally can see the difference between (0/0/0), (1/1/1) and (2/2/2) on my monitor.
I have resolved the problem.
The "Ambient light level" measurement was still configured on dispcalGui from my previous calibrations.
Since I have updated the software, the "Ambient light level" configuration was hidden in the new version.
I have disabled it through the advanced settings and re-calibrated the TV with XYZ LUT + Matrix with Gamma 2.4.
Using the ti3 Parser the 3dlut was created for madVR calibration settings.
I have tried several profiles with different brightness/contrast/tint settings.
The best results were received with the "Relative" gamma tone curve.
The movies are much more vivid and the colors are deeper now comparing to the Rec709 profile i used before.
Yet using the gamma curve 2.4 in madVR results a bit darker picture than I would like, but the 2.3 seems to be the sweet spot for me resulting stunning and polished rendering.
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Old 21st January 2012, 22:50   #242  |  Link
Mama70
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Well, I liked what this seemed to be doing for colour and gamma, though it definitely needed improved somewhat, but I definitely seemed to be noticing a lot more banding, though I never got around to doing a proper test.

From the beginning of Pitch Black:

Original:


yCMS:


ArgyllCMS:



This is exactly the sort of problem you get when using too much data to create a LUT, as I warned about before.

Any ideas on what can be done to improve things?
The problem is you are using a spectrophotometer (i1 Pro?) and it doesn't give accurate reading in low light measurements.

I have ColorMunki and i1 Display 2 and user ColorMunki only for creating correction matrix for Display2. Then I do the actual calibration with Display2. But still, it doesn't get the low light measurents well.

At first I didn't understand ti3-file is used only for the black end. I tried using MPC-HC's own ICC-CMS and black end seemed ok. I think MPC-HC's CMS uses LittleCMS and it also creates 3dlut internally.

Easy but not perfect solution was to use yCMS and only ti3-file. You don't get perfect calibration though.

Launch TI3ParserGUI.exe and open your ti3-file and you'll see what the problem is.

My grayscale values were:
0, XYZ, 0, 0, 0
1.7857, XYZ, 0, 0, 0
3.5714, XYZ, 0, 0, 0
5.3571, XYZ, 0.027882, 0.02763, 0.042054
7.1429, XYZ, 0.10489, 0.10941, 0.1317
8.9286, XYZ, 0.2645, 0.28805, 0.2925
10.714, XYZ, 0.4104, 0.43535, 0.45801
12.5, XYZ, 0.65471, 0.69213, 0.6966
etc.

The problem in my file is values for 1.7857, 3.5714 and even 5.3571 are too low so my colorimeter doesn't get any values or they are inaccurate. Because program sees to low values, it tries to raise the values in 3dlut, and there you go, gray instead of black.

Simple but not perfect and final solution is just to drop those inaccurate values. So I copy&pasted those values to madVR's yCMS and used these values for gray scale:
0, XYZ, 0, 0, 0
7.1429, XYZ, 0.10489, 0.10941, 0.1317
8.9286, XYZ, 0.2645, 0.28805, 0.2925
10.714, XYZ, 0.4104, 0.43535, 0.45801
12.5, XYZ, 0.65471, 0.69213, 0.6966
etc.

I just wish we could have a version that has an option to only use ICC-files and LittleCMS.
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Old 22nd January 2012, 05:24   #243  |  Link
nand chan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama70 View Post
I just wish we could have a version that has an option to only use ICC-files and LittleCMS.
Use:

Code:
!Filetype(3DLUT);

!Pixel(
    ColorDec(ColorSpace.madVR),
    IccSingle("your_profile.icc")
);
Save it as anything and drag/drop onto lutscript.exe
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Forget about my old .3dlut stuff, just use mpv if you want accurate color management
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Old 22nd January 2012, 18:58   #244  |  Link
Mama70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nand chan View Post
Use:

Code:
!Filetype(3DLUT);

!Pixel(
    ColorDec(ColorSpace.madVR),
    IccSingle("your_profile.icc")
);
Save it as anything and drag/drop onto lutscript.exe
Thanks a lot! With SVP and 3DLUT picture is so lifelike.
Why don't we have televisions&projectors that support natively 3dlut
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Old 22nd January 2012, 19:31   #245  |  Link
nand chan
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Originally Posted by Mama70 View Post
Thanks a lot! With SVP and 3DLUT picture is so lifelike.
Why don't we have televisions&projectors that support natively 3dlut
Higher end computer monitors and projectors support reprogrammable 3DLUTs.
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Old 23rd January 2012, 21:07   #246  |  Link
Mama70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nand chan View Post
Higher end computer monitors and projectors support reprogrammable 3DLUTs.
But you cannot import 3dlut from pc, can you? Which projectors supports this?
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Old 25th January 2012, 02:58   #247  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama70 View Post
The problem is you are using a spectrophotometer (i1 Pro?) and it doesn't give accurate reading in low light measurements.
With the correct software, the i1Pro is accurate down to fairly low light levels—about 0.5cd/m2, which is 11% grey at 2.40 gamma with white at 100cd/m2. The banding shown here is nowhere close to that—it's in the 25–55% luminance range, far outside where meter error comes into play. (P.S. this is another reason why I dislike automated calibration—I can see when a low-light reading is clearly wrong and discard it, automated software doesn't know that)

If I remember correctly, I also disabled the backlight scanning when doing that calibration, which brings the panel brightness up significantly higher, placing the error range down around 6% grey.


I have had far greater success running test patterns in MPC-HC with the madVR yCMS options open and manually editing the xyY values (co-ordinates are far easier to manipulate by hand than XYZ) for each point, taking measurements with CalMAN running on another screen.

It's far more time consuming than it ought to be—if I could simply enter the RGB value I want out rather than tweaking xyY input, I'd arrive at the correct values a lot quicker, but it gives accurate results without the banding that this introduces.

For what it's worth, even then, I won't give it data below about 20% or so. I calibrate that range using the display's own controls, because any changes below 20% or so in yCMS seems to introduce posterisation/discolouration. (not due to meter error)

I also have the option of profiling my i1Pro to a colorimeter, but find that it's unnecessary in most cases, unless I need really low-light readings. I have yet to find a display where you have control over the very dark areas of the picture requiring readings that low, which does not introduce banding, discolouration or some other kind of issue, so while it's nice to know what the display is doing there, you can't fix it without introducing bigger errors anyway. Picture controls are very coarse down near black, and it's obvious when something is wrong.


Perhaps I'll give this another try some time with a significantly reduced dataset. As I've said from the beginning, problems like this tend to arise from using too much data when profiling a display.

Last edited by 6233638; 25th January 2012 at 03:00.
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Old 13th February 2012, 16:00   #248  |  Link
kasper93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nand chan View Post
Rec709 is simply incorrect. The black levels you are seeing are unnaturally bright. It's supposed to be as dark as 2.4. If 2.4 is too dark you can try 2.2 or maybe 2.1 instead, but definitely don't use Rec709.
But if we adjust ambient light level (32 lux for me) in dispcal than rec709 is dark enough(little brighter than gamma 2.2), correct me if I'm wrong. I'm using 2.2 for movies since I have shitty monitor and gamma 2.4 is too dark for me.

Thanks for great tool. If I may suggest you should add information about LinkICCGUI "auto-calibration" function in yours madvr calibration guide. It's enabled by default, and in your guide you wrote to enable profile before watching what is wrong, because if auto-calibration is enabled we should disable any other color management, but yo know that :-)

P.S For rec709 default ambient light level is 1000 lux which is good for studio, but definitely not for home

Last edited by kasper93; 13th February 2012 at 16:15.
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Old 20th February 2012, 23:29   #249  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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when having a lut script like this (.3ls2)

Code:
!Filetype(3DLUT);
!Input_Primaries(ColorSpace.BT709);

!Pixel(
  
  Scale(-16.0 / 219.0, 239.0 / 219.0),
  Clamp(0, 1)
  
);
here e.g. in order to correct wrong 16/235 BDs, how and where do I have to insert a line or formula to change the gamma value? how does the formula/line for the default gamma look like with this type of script and how do I have to modify it in order to increase or decrease gamma a little?
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Old 30th June 2012, 08:53   #250  |  Link
tschi
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hi nand chan
I have an error with ti3parser :
System.execption : failed parsing the ti3 file : Sample_ID RGB_R .... not found
I use Argyll 1.4 and dispcalgui 1.0.7.7
here my ti3 file http://www.mediafire.com/?k847ll93lggxp3z
Thank you for your consideration
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Old 23rd August 2012, 16:40   #251  |  Link
killazys
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Hi nand,

Just to confirm the proper way of going about calibration for playback with madVR. (These are the steps I took.)

1. Calibrate using DispcalGUI to Chromaticity 0.312713x, 0.329016y, White level @ 120.0 cd/m^2, Black level as measured, Gamma 2.35 Relative, no ambient adjustment, 100% black output offset, no black point correction (for LCD monitor). Calibration quality set to High. Profile quality High, type = curves + matrix w/large testchart.

2. Use DispcalGUI to apply calibration.

3. Load resulting files into TI3Parser and uncheck "Automatic calibration (disable your video card's calibration for this).

4. In madVR, load the 3DLut file, and specify pure power gamma to 2.35.

Sound about right? The TI3Parser's automatic calibration worries me.
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Old 1st September 2012, 05:23   #252  |  Link
dansrfe
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I have a couple of questions. But first I need to share my story. I have a 1920 x 1080, 60Hz laptop screen and a 2048 x 1152, 60Hz monitor which is connected to my laptop via HDMI. I have calibrated my laptop monitor with the built-in Windows calibration tool and I ended up simply decreasing the blue tone and green tone by a bit. That was it for that. I calibrated my external monitor with the built-in Windows calibration tool and I basically did nothing but decrease the gamma but 1 point or "registered mouse movement downwards" (since I don't know what units the scale was in). The rest of the calibration for the monitor (Dell SP2309W) was done via it's built-in OSD. I decreased the brightness and contrast from 75 (factory default) to 70. Then I set the colors to "Custom" and it allowed me to change the RGB values individually. I adjusted the red to 92 and the green to 95 and left the blue at 100. The monitor is in "Graphics" mode by default and I left it there.

I use madVR frequently to view Bluray material and I have been meaning to understand and figure out how to best implement a custom calibration solution with yCMS and 3DLUTs but I have come to the conclusion that I don't know nearly enough to even get started in calibrating both my screens in a correct, procedural manner with this technology.

My question is, what tools, devices, and materials do I need to correctly calibrate both monitors. What are the steps to doing so in the current situation and settings I have changed/"calibrated" with. And finally, what is the correct way to go about calibrating my panasonic plasma tv as well? (the tv was corrected only with the built-in OSD. Mainly the contrast and brightness were brought down to 65 in custom mode).

PS: What does it mean to or what are the differences between calibrating with graphics card software, hardware OSDs, Windows calibration tool and making an ICC file, or using some other calibration software?

Thanks! I would truly like to donate to this project if it works for me as well if the author is taking donations at this time.

Last edited by dansrfe; 1st September 2012 at 05:25.
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Old 11th February 2013, 04:55   #253  |  Link
hulkss
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Question on 3D LUT creation and use

I'm a user of JRiver Media Center in an HTPC. Video playback is achieved with LAV Filters and madVR.

I want to apply color management using a .3dLUT in madVR to correct my projector. The short story to accomplish this is:

1. Use ArgyllCMS with dispcalGUI to generate a XYZ LUT + Matrix.
2. Install and load the ICC profile created with Windows 7 color management.
3. Use LinkICCGUI (from the TI3 Parser toolset) to generate the .3dLUT for madVR.
4. Setup madVR to use the 3D LUT.

My question is: If I uncheck the box (no auto-calibrate) in the GUI window shown below when generating the .3dLUT, will the .3dLUT be made to work properly along with the ICC profile loaded by Windows 7 (both the ICC profile and the .3dLUT in madVR will be active)

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Old 12th February 2013, 03:15   #254  |  Link
kasper93
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IIRC it's exactly as you described, but the best way is to measure colors after correction and you will be sure.
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Old 13th February 2013, 00:28   #255  |  Link
e-t172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulkss View Post
My question is: If I uncheck the box (no auto-calibrate) in the GUI window shown below when generating the .3dLUT, will the .3dLUT be made to work properly along with the ICC profile loaded by Windows 7 (both the ICC profile and the .3dLUT in madVR will be active)
I'm also interested in the answer. I would suggest, however, that you do the opposite: configure madVR to disable Windows's gamma ramps during playback and then use a full 3DLUT. This is likely to give better results (less banding because the calibration is done before madVR's dithering).
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Old 13th February 2013, 03:42   #256  |  Link
hulkss
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
I'm also interested in the answer. I would suggest, however, that you do the opposite: configure madVR to disable Windows's gamma ramps during playback and then use a full 3DLUT. This is likely to give better results (less banding because the calibration is done before madVR's dithering).
OK, I'll try both methods this weekend. I won't install the ICC profile and I'll check the auto-calibrate box when I make the 3D LUT and the other way as mentioned above.

Update:
Seems to work fine both ways, I checked for banding with a full screen gray scale ramp (I'm using Intel HD4000 graphics with HDMI monitor connection @ 1920 x 1080). I prefer to install the ICC profile with Windows 7 for global gray scale correction. MadVR 3D LUT then corrects color gamut during video playback.

I posted instructions here: How To Get Perfect Video Color

Last edited by hulkss; 18th February 2013 at 07:10.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 03:01   #257  |  Link
zoyd
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What are the specs on the .3dlut created this way, how many gamut points are remapped in madVR? thanks.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 17:50   #258  |  Link
MSL_DK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
What are the specs on the .3dlut created this way, how many gamut points are remapped in madVR? thanks.
Hello ... Are you the same zoyd If you are, I thank you for the work with HCFR!

Are you planning gamut & gamma correction (.3 dlut generator) through HCFR?
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Old 24th February 2013, 00:40   #259  |  Link
zoyd
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Hi! yes that's me. No, sorry, I couldn't get close to what dispcalGUI/ArgyllCMS could do. I was just curios about 3DLUTs in general, especially for displays like mine which have good onboard CMS systems. I did some testing I might post about on avsforums with the Argyll profiles->3dlut->madVR corrections.
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Old 27th February 2013, 13:25   #260  |  Link
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Ahh .. Okay :-) I will look for your result :-)
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