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Old 6th October 2011, 05:21   #501  |  Link
Hera
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Haal is black screening now... for everything and for all codecs.
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Old 6th October 2011, 09:04   #502  |  Link
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Haali works fine here, but unless I enable "Disable RGB linearization", I get a black picture in EVR CP/VMR9r with >8bit surface, but subtitles/typesetting etc. appear.
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Old 6th October 2011, 22:06   #503  |  Link
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tester dfr3752ir

I've fixed the linearization functions (I misplaced one curly brace) and fixed another subtitle renderer initialization bug.
I'll have to look into the issue with Haali renderer. With basic settings it seems to reasonably work for me.
I'll have to think about adding color controls to the video renderer, so it can alter the combined subtitles with video image (like the color management and dithering). I wasn't planning to add any color controls on top of those of EVR and VMR-9, though.
These builds have a new present method for Windows 7 and newer (FlipEx). I'd like to ask how well it works with getting the image in windowed mode to the desktop swap chain, in terms of timing, efficiency and such. I'll try to make the reset-on-resize function a bit faster later on.
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Old 7th October 2011, 16:36   #504  |  Link
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Last 3 days I was trying madVR, only to discover it fails the same way EVR-CP failed in these experimental builds. Specifically, it cannot present the frammes in a timely manner when the video played is 24fps but the screen 60Hz, resulting in jerky motion, something like microstuttering. The trunk EVR-CP can do this perfectly, so the video is fluid, even if an effect like a 3:2 pulldown is visible.

I will try the latest tester build 3752 during the weekend, the EVR-CP in these builds is my only hope for some decent video quality apparently.
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Old 7th October 2011, 19:46   #505  |  Link
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The 64 bit EVR-CP crashes immediately after loading the 32 bit SSE2 works, also the performance of the old FlipEX code here seems better with both ffdshow-quicksync (memory copy) and Cyberlink DXVA2 (direct) switching (resize) times with 3752i are better 3752ir causes a long (delay) and so a big audio glitch @ the switch (resize), perceptional this already hurts in 3752i a little (compared to the trunk) but in 3752ir it is unacceptable worse because its not seamless anymore (only video) but audio glitches also here now.


PS: The heaviest crash i got so far with 3752ir EVR-CP running Firefox 10 (GPU) in the background trying to switch from window to full window, doesnt happen with 3752i testing in both cases 10 rapid switch cycles (window,full window,fullscreen).





Trunk 3752 32bit MPC-HC EVR-CP result:



Tester 3752i 32bit MPC-HC EVR-CP result:




Yep i got the rendering of the Text in Trunk back under control it seems to have repaired itself after installing the DirectX redist that came with RAGE
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Old 8th October 2011, 17:32   #506  |  Link
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More or less what CruNcher says, performance is much better in this version, those damn stutters seem to be almost gone, just the change between window and fullscreen is very slow and causes crashes at times.
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Old 9th October 2011, 00:21   #507  |  Link
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@cca: I was looking at the internal timing functions, and I found out that the timer functions are typically difficult to manage.
Some manufacturers disable HPET in the BIOS by default or set it to 32-bit, instead of the normal 64-bit mode. CPU throttling options are sometimes also to blame.
Can you see in your system BIOS if HPET is enabled correctly?
Can you test if disabling CPU throttling helps? You can temporarily disable it in the the Windows control panel. Under "Power Options", select the "High Performance" power plan to disable power-saving options. A nice article on this:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windo...windows-vista/
If changing settings for power management helps, you might need to update some drivers or fine-tune the power settings to a more balanced state.
Some extra reading materials on HPET (for convenience, I left out the programmer's resources):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Precision_Event_Timer
http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=106
http://www.reghardware.com/2006/07/0...re_tweak_tool/

@CruNcher: It's a multi-threading issue for the paused mode. I've solved it already.
I'm trying to fix switching in between files with the 10-bit display mode enabled, and making the reset sequences less annoying for the next batch.
I've also added a pause command to allow the video renderer to take some time to finish its first paint loop, for example when creating a new file for the color management.
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Old 9th October 2011, 03:54   #508  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanWillem32 View Post
@cca: I was looking at the internal timing functions, and I found out that the timer functions are typically difficult to manage.
Some manufacturers disable HPET in the BIOS by default or set it to 32-bit, instead of the normal 64-bit mode. CPU throttling options are sometimes also to blame.
Can you see in your system BIOS if HPET is enabled correctly?
Can you test if disabling CPU throttling helps? You can temporarily disable it in the the Windows control panel. Under "Power Options", select the "High Performance" power plan to disable power-saving options. A nice article on this:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windo...windows-vista/
If changing settings for power management helps, you might need to update some drivers or fine-tune the power settings to a more balanced state.
Some extra reading materials on HPET (for convenience, I left out the programmer's resources):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Precision_Event_Timer
http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=106
http://www.reghardware.com/2006/07/0...re_tweak_tool/

@CruNcher: It's a multi-threading issue for the paused mode. I've solved it already.
I'm trying to fix switching in between files with the 10-bit display mode enabled, and making the reset sequences less annoying for the next batch.
I've also added a pause command to allow the video renderer to take some time to finish its first paint loop, for example when creating a new file for the color management.
Nice in regards to hpet timer issues and how to identify them easily http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=1#post4731014
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Old 9th October 2011, 06:53   #509  |  Link
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Thank for the suggestions, here's my 2 cents: I built the system myself, also use linux on it so I can already tell you it has 4 32bit HPET timers on it, enabled. Disabling power management just to play a video is not acceptable, my quad core consumes a lot of power in full clock mode. Also, the current VSync implementation in the trunk builds works fine for years now, why both of you are blaming my system all of a sudden? That VSync algorithm never drops a frame or produces stutter. Also let me remark this: this kind of slight stutters are not so visible when you watch movies or normal series, but in my case 99% of the time I watch *animation*. In the case of animation the slightest jerk or stutter is immediately noticeable. This is the reason that years ago I was one of the first users of ReClock, I could see dropped frames where no one else could.

I got the same attitude from the madVR users, "it must be your system or you". Well, MPC-HC's current EVR-CP works FLAWLESSLY even with postprocessing shaders enabled. madVR does not. The EVC-CP of this test builds does not. Nothing more to say.
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Old 9th October 2011, 08:58   #510  |  Link
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I should have pointed out in my previous post that I've changed some original timer functions for HPET equivalents. (Before I knew that the HPET system is rather flawed in some cases.) I don't mind changing things, but I do need to find out what to change first.
Anyway, how does the trunk build fare when VSync and flushing functions are disabled in the two windowed modes and the exclusive mode for both EVR and VMR-9? (Each uses different timing modes. Now with adding FlipEx mode for Windows 7 with Aero enabled, I've also added yet another mode.)
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Old 9th October 2011, 10:02   #511  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanWillem32 View Post
I should have pointed out in my previous post that I've changed some original timer functions for HPET equivalents. (Before I knew that the HPET system is rather flawed in some cases.) I don't mind changing things, but I do need to find out what to change first.
Anyway, how does the trunk build fare when VSync and flushing functions are disabled in the two windowed modes and the exclusive mode for both EVR and VMR-9? (Each uses different timing modes. Now with adding FlipEx mode for Windows 7 with Aero enabled, I've also added yet another mode.)
Urgh, VSync disabled? So I gave it a go, the results I get seem to be a lot like your build, random skips and stutters. As for the exclusive mode produces similar result with the windowed, random jerkyness but I did not observe tearing at least.

EVR and VMR9 gave the same results from what I can see.

I do not know precisely how the VSync works in the trunk builds, but it is doing a very successful job at eliminating all random phenomena for me. Without it, it's the same with the rest of the renderers I tried, random motion problems.

The most recent change you did with the FlipEx helped a lot, but not quite there yet.
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Old 9th October 2011, 12:26   #512  |  Link
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If you use High Performance does it still stutter, do you have a sample that shows the biggest problems for you in motion i guess @ 60 hz ?

Windows Power Management plays a big role when it comes to fluid video Playback unfortunately, not so for DXVA but with memory copy going on Power saving can be a bad thing Balanced also seems to work fine but Power Saving to fullest isn't really worth it compared to the back fire (especially with DWM Aero and it's continuous memory copy). Though it also Depends on the CPU,GPU architecture alot Sandy Bridge is in those regards very efficient in switching (and it even switches without anyone really noticing it even in High performance most standard stuff hasn't the resolution to show it ) and latency reduction, tough measuring with EVR-CPs OSD in general is a problem the text output itself consumes a fair amount of cycles (continuous timer firing) and causes itself latency. Windows 8 and WDDM 1.2 should improve this though further

I switched to Sandy Bridge early on and i can say in those regards it's top it saves power like crazy without really hurting the Performance and if i think about haswell it shivers down my spine how efficient that must be

@ Balanced SNB system result



OSD overhead:



Graph only:

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Old 9th October 2011, 13:30   #513  |  Link
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Here's mine:

System was always set to Balanced anyway.
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Old 9th October 2011, 14:04   #514  |  Link
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cca could you provide some of the animation scenes you have issues with (samples) ?
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Old 9th October 2011, 14:12   #515  |  Link
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Quote:
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cca could you provide some of the animation scenes you have issues with (samples) ?
Umm, all you need is any recent anime release encoded in H.264. This one for example
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Old 9th October 2011, 15:33   #516  |  Link
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@cca

if that isn't stable i dunno what could be not 1 glitch flawless motion no problems, though this is 3752i not 3752ir



and now the craziest

Process Explorer run the whole time with a 0.5 ms timer, the GPU Spike comes from Firefox D2D Gif Animation rendering, i love SNB and NT 6, i guess i will top it off running ID tech 5 windowed
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Old 9th October 2011, 15:48   #517  |  Link
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With animation, you can only notice stuttering with panning / zooming scenes / 3D-animation.
2D animation many times is simply is 0/1/0/1 for things like mouth movement so you really cannot notice stuttering.
Additionally, some encodes introduce stuttering (stuttering that happens with all codecs and renderers).

I do not notice any renderer-imposed stuttering. :/

Offtopic: GIF performance is a long standing Firefox bug introduced and reported during Firefox 4 development and will probably be fixed by Firefox 10 or 11.
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Old 9th October 2011, 15:49   #518  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hera View Post
With animation, you can only notice stuttering with panning / zooming scenes / 3D-animation.
2D animation many times is simply is 0/1/0/1 for things like mouth movement so you really cannot notice stuttering.
Additionally, some encodes introduce stuttering (stuttering that happens with all codecs and renderers).

I do not notice any renderer-imposed stuttering. :/

Offtopic: GIF performance is a long standing Firefox bug introduced and reported during Firefox 4 development and will probably be fixed by Firefox 10 or 11.

it is fixed but CPU wise it came back shortly as a regression but is fixed again https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=595671 it's a wild ride with it
Tough you should look @ it carefull it's GPU usage not CPU usage the bug was about high CPU usage that maxed out old CPUs really fast and even caused unacceptable high CPU usage on Multicores, though if you compare with current Chrome they push the load to IO which seems far from nice .

And yep a bad encode also can cause problems see evil tree as perfect example you need a very specific playback chain to play it flawless which makes rarely sense todo and better fix it like jan did fixing it's pulldown

The best testing Horizontal and Vertical fluidness is pushing a lot of different Ken Burns @ it

i watched this complete Anime and didn't saw any problem with it's motion also in zooms and pans and there are a lot of different pans zooms and ken burns here with different speeds.
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Old 9th October 2011, 16:29   #519  |  Link
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Hehe, I know about the stutters already in the animation itself, the difference with them is that they are reproducible every time you view the video. The ones I notice are obviously always in panning scenes, and they are *not* the same every time you view the specific scene, hence they come from the renderer.

@CruNcher: I do not doubt it is stable for you, but it is not for me. I can view the same scene 10 times, and some times it will be stable, sometimes I will see jerkyness. That is too random and not how a proper renderer should behave. The only renderer to date that is 100% predictable in my own system is the current EVR-CP in the trunk builds.

What I do in the specific video I gave you is this: I fast forward to 19:30 and watch the panning scenes there ( ) then I rewind again back to 19:30 and watch again. Sometimes smooth, sometimes not. And me disappointed every time it happens.

EDIT: forgot to add: I do not rely on stats and numbers, I fall for this trap with madVR. They say no glitches and everything smooth. But it is not. I do my tests visually only, my only instrument are my own eyes.
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Old 9th October 2011, 16:39   #520  |  Link
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Quote:
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Hehe, I know about the stutters already in the animation itself, the difference with them is that they are reproducible every time you view the video. The ones I notice are obviously always in panning scenes, and they are *not* the same every time you view the specific scene, hence they come from the renderer.

@CruNcher: I do not doubt it is stable for you, but it is not for me. I can view the same scene 10 times, and some times it will be stable, sometimes I will see jerkyness. That is too random and not how a proper renderer should behave. The only renderer to date that is 100% predictable in my own system is the current EVR-CP in the trunk builds.

What I do in the specific video I gave you is this: I fast forward to 19:30 and watch the panning scenes there ( ) then I rewind again back to 19:30 and watch again. Sometimes smooth, sometimes not. And me disappointed every time it happens.

EDIT: forgot to add: I do not rely on stats and numbers, I fall for this trap with madVR. They say no glitches and everything smooth. But it is not. I do my tests visually only, my only instrument are my own eyes.
let me try something i guess this is perfect to test something new, and yes never trust anything else then your eyes OSDs and stuff are nice but they are influenced and some times can be even the cause for issues themselves
And so i can only tell that i stay with AERO for me and my Configuration it's perfect and i don't seem to need any exclusive modes so far

And yep debuging issues like you experience is not easy though Microsoft is working hard to provide solutions for this currently you have to go deep down and analyze the system to find the cause but in the future it will be much easier
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