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Old 8th September 2011, 14:40   #5321  |  Link
oddball
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Why is it so difficult for LAV spliiter to handle subtitles correctly? Haali does. MPC-HC does. LAV doesn't.

For English spoken movies I only want forced subs shown.

For non-English movies I only want English subs shown (or 'undetermined' subs when they have not been set to 'eng' in mkvmerge).

LAV refuses to do both correctly no matter what options are set.

If i set only show forced subs it only shows forced subs. I should not need to set that as an option it should be automatic. In MPC-HC i have both audio and subs set to jap, eng. This works 100% correctly. In LAV I get full subs all of the time, if I leave the field where you state the language it ignores everything and defaults to the first sub track found in the MKV (could be German or whatever) or if I set to forced subs that is all I get so any foreign language movies I get NO subs whatsoever!

Also a lot of foreign movies I watch have the language set to 'undetermined'.

Please someone tell me how to get this working correctly!

Last edited by oddball; 8th September 2011 at 14:54.
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Old 8th September 2011, 14:46   #5322  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by Sven75 View Post
Thanks a lot - I will check the new version asap.

Did you already find out something regarding the PowerPoint issues? Are any of the small fixes related to it?
So i tried playing with PowerPoint again today.

Powerpoint 2007 now plays most stuff just fine, using the MCI interface. I disabled the WMP one.
Even in correct colors and everything. The only "issue" i currently have is that the image it shows after inserting the video is all distorted on some files (but not others), but when you start playback its fine. (I think it may have cached that image somewhere from before i fixed it...)

The Powerpoint 2010 Viewer however does not even try to open a DirectShow graph when i give it the file you gave me. So no idea how to test it.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 8th September 2011 at 14:57.
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Old 8th September 2011, 15:11   #5323  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by oddball View Post
If i set only show forced subs it only shows forced subs. I should not need to set that as an option it should be automatic. In MPC-HC i have both audio and subs set to jap, eng. This works 100% correctly. In LAV I get full subs all of the time, if I leave the field where you state the language it ignores everything and defaults to the first sub track found in the MKV (could be German or whatever) or if I set to forced subs that is all I get so any foreign language movies I get NO subs whatsoever!
The options work 100% as advertised.
It just doesn't do anything beyond those options.

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Originally Posted by oddball View Post
Also a lot of foreign movies I watch have the language set to 'undetermined'.
And what do you expect to happen for these?
Can't help it if your files do not have language tags.

Anyhow, it is planned to provide new subtitle selection logic with more "smart" selection capabilities.

For a small preview, check this post from a while back:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...52#post1519452

In addition to the above "advanced" logic, the "simple" logic will also behave much smarter, once its done.
I will probably work on that some time soon, actually.

I'll draft up the syntax specification in the next days, so people can comment on it before i start implementing it.

PS:
There is no "correctly", everyone prefers different subtitle logic.
Me? I want english or german forced subs, never anything else. That works pretty correctly for me. :P

The new logic should hopefully be able to accommodate everyone.

PPS:
I kinda doubt that MPC-HCs MKV splitter does anything "right" or "wrong", it creates one output pin for every subtitle, it doesn't have any logic whatsoever.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 8th September 2011 at 15:15.
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Old 8th September 2011, 15:27   #5324  |  Link
oddball
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If the default audio is English then by default it is logical that the default subtitle track should also be English but ALWAYS be off and only forced English subs should be shown. If you are hard of hearing or speak another language then it should be down to you to select otherwise.

If the default audio is Non-English or undetermined then the subtitles should also default to the same language as the audio track and should also be 'off' unless forced and those forced subs should also in the same language as the audio.

There should then be the option to set a 'preferred' subtitle language that overrides the above so that if you want subs ALWAYS in English but only shown when the audio track is Non-English you put it in that field (Eng,Jap and 'Und' for no track flag set). Same goes with audio track preference.

This makes perfect sense to me and I do not know why it's so difficult to get to grips with.

DVD and bluray players have handled it this way for years and it's never been an issue.

Last edited by oddball; 8th September 2011 at 15:46.
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Old 8th September 2011, 15:58   #5325  |  Link
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I wonder why this is so complex to begin with subtitles are an option and as such should never be displayed by default :P
if a meta tag says "undefined" then it should switch to the language that lav splitter allows you to set, but still shouldn't enable it to be displayed
Then if you turn subtitles on in the player you get either the forced language shown or the meta tags one (your own forcefully defined though should always overwrite the meta tag (author) decision and os language (application) in any case, if you didn't set anything the meta tag "author defined is used" if that isn't set either then your system os language should be chosen as the preferred one (or the applications set language which mostly is defined by the os anyways)) but the player itself should never enable subs in the first place to be displayed (unless also you as user want it to). Very simple logic

So 3 options OS(Application), Forced (Your decision(list)), Meta tag (author) supplied) and whichever is selected the Player never ever should show them by default (unless user forces it explicitly)
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Old 8th September 2011, 16:07   #5326  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
And what do you expect to happen for these?
Can't help it if your files do not have language tags.
It's not that it doesn't have one, it just tagged 'und'. That's a real choice with mkvmerge and I've used it myself for some special situations. No tag at all is a different case, which of course I know you know.

Just saying, it would be nice if the reg ex string option were able to handle tracks marked 'und' if possible.

Here's hoping. Thanks for all your hard work. Looking forward to the new options
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Old 8th September 2011, 16:14   #5327  |  Link
nevcairiel
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It's not that it doesn't have one, it just tagged 'und'. That's a real choice with mkvmerge and I've used it myself for some special situations. No tag at all is a different case, which of course I know you know.

Just saying, it would be nice if the reg ex string option were able to handle tracks marked 'und' if possible.

Here's hoping. Thanks for all your hard work. Looking forward to the new options
Yeah i know that "no tag" means english in MKV. I don't do anything special to the tags, if it contains "und", then the new subtitle thingy will allow you to configure a rule for it.
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Old 8th September 2011, 16:16   #5328  |  Link
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Couldn't get any better. Thanks nev.
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Old 8th September 2011, 16:36   #5329  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
...

The Powerpoint 2010 Viewer however does not even try to open a DirectShow graph when i give it the file you gave me. So no idea how to test it.
Thanks for trying - I am very grateful that you are looking into all this.

Unfortunately, I am very busy at work (setting up and testing PCs with your newest filters and some other stuff), but I will come back to you later and provide you with some more info.
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Old 8th September 2011, 16:41   #5330  |  Link
nevcairiel
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So i started to think how to design the default simple configuration mode.

There is two options for a default mode

1)
You only show forced subtitles, and never anything else.
That can be achieved right now, and is all i need, because i never watch content where i don't understand the audio.

2)
You show forced subtitles when audio matches your preference, and full subtitles otherwise.
Apparently this is what oddball wants.

------------------------------------------------------------
I can tell you how the "default" in a future version might work:

Assuming, i configured the audio as "eng ger", because that are the two languages i understand, with the preference of English audio, because i like the original rather then the dub.

Without any further configuration, this would happen:

- Assuming the file has english or german audio
--- If there are forced subtitles in english or german, they would be shown.
--- No other subtitles would be shown.

- If the file has no english or german audio
--- Show full subtitles in english/german (or the track marked default)

Now, the second part is questionable. Not everyone wants that, so it'll get an option.
Actually, there will be two options (i suck at wording options, but you'll get the idea)

- "Show subtitles when audio does not match preference" (default on/off? undecided)
- "Always show full subtitles" (default off)

I consider this a pretty sane default configuration. The options will need some better names (ideas welcome), and i have to decide if i want option1 active by default or not. And i should probably decide if i want an option to completely turn off subtitles.

One question remains for me:
How the hell do i deal with "default" flags on subtitles? What are they supposed to mean?

The MKV spec says this:
"Set if that track (audio, video or subs) SHOULD be used if no language found matches the user preference."

To me that means that there is one case where default would be used. Going back to my example from above - If the file has no eng/ger audio, and no eng/ger subtitle, then i'll use the default subtitle.
In addition, if "Always show full subtitles" is ON, it would also fall back to the default if no matching language was found, of course.

Am i missing something?

This all just refers to the "simple" config, which needs some good default behavior.
The "advanced" config will be able to completely control this.

Anyhow, if you have constructive ideas regarding subtitles, everyone is welcome to contribute, now is the time.
Note, though, that posts which are not constructive, seem like trolling, or anything of that sort, will just be ignored.
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:00   #5331  |  Link
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Maybe you can split it up into two configurations. One simple, where you enter the languages you understand in the order of priority, i.e. for you "eng ger" and then it chooses "eng(audio),eng forced(sub);eng(audio),off(sub);ger(audio),ger forced(sub);ger(audio),off(sub)" (hope this pseudo code is readable). Maybe forced should not only account for "forced" flag, but also the string "forced" in the subtitle description?

Then a second advanced feature like the one used in Haali or rather more advanced like you proposed some pages back (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...52#post1519452).

Most users will choose the simple logic, just stating that they only speak english and/or another language and the few others that need more individualization can choose the advanced logic. I guess everyone should be happy then?
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:01   #5332  |  Link
oddball
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I still think my version is the most sensible. If no flag is set then default should be whatever subtitle your preferred language is and only come on if toggled in the player. Tie the default to the OS language if you need to (German OS user gets German subs as default just like when they setup their DVD player for the first time).

"2)
You show forced subtitles when audio matches your preference, and full subtitles otherwise.
Apparently this is what oddball wants."

The subtitle language should always match the audio language and only be shown in full if you set it to be that way. in your options you have a option called 'always show forced subtitles' which to me is backwards. it should be 'never show forced subtitles'. That way if you do not want to show any subtitles at all you can have that. But forced subtitles should otherwise always be shown and in the same language as the audio unless it is either undetermined (defaults to your preferred language or tied to OS) or set as a preference yourself. Full subtitles should never be shown unless you choose to (always show full subtitles) or using the eng,jap system.

Last edited by oddball; 8th September 2011 at 17:12.
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:02   #5333  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Most users will choose the simple logic, just stating that they only speak english and/or another language and the few others that need more individualization can choose the advanced logic. I guess everyone should be happy then?
It is definitely planned to offer both a simple and a more advanced configuration.


Quote:
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I still think my version is the most sensible. If no flag is set then default should be whatever subtitle your preferred language is and only come on if toggled in the player. Tie the default to the OS language if you need to (German OS user gets German subs as default just like when they setup their DVD player for the first time).
Most people keep the subtitles always on in the player, and expect the splitter to actually turn them on or off for them (and complain otherwise). There wouldn't even be a need for the "No subtitles" option if the players would actually deal with this...
I'm quite sure that you'll be able to get it to work like you want with the new logic as well.
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:07   #5334  |  Link
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I think the way it's working now is fine for my needs. I have both audio and subtitles set to: eng,spa,esp

Then I have it set to Only Forced Subs and Only with matching language. If I want to choose a different sub, for instance if I want to actually see full subs, I can just select it from the subtitle menu. This is as close to how it works on a set-top blu-ray player. If you want to see full subs you select it on the player, etc.
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:11   #5335  |  Link
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It is definitely planned to offer both a simple and a more advanced configuration.
I was thinking along these lines that you could avoid having multiple ways to configure options by providing one dropdown combo and seed it with all your defined 'simple' options. When one is selected it would build the reg ex of the advanced option that fit that selection (you might still need pref audio/sub lang boxes for input). Then one of the dropdown options would be, 'User Defined' allowing the user to input directly to a reg ex field.

It took me some time to realize that these similar simple vs. advanced options on Haali were mutually exclusive and this would also have the benfit of 'educating' users to at least the basics of how the reg ex option could be used. It also makes it easy for you to add or tweak additional 'simple' configurations in the future.
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:15   #5336  |  Link
nevcairiel
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It took me some time to realize that these similar simple vs. advanced options on Haali were mutually exclusive and this would also have the benfit of 'educating' users to at least the basics of how the reg ex option could be used.
My current idea would be to offer a checkbox for the advanced mode, which then hides the "simple" mode config, and shows the advanced mode. That way there wouldn't be any confusion - i hope.

The first time advanced mode is activated, i would seed it with the generated commands from simple mode. (In the logic, simple mode would always be converted to an advanced string, so i don't have to implement two algorithms to select streams)
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:19   #5337  |  Link
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As I said back in the day, the only feature I miss in the current logic is the ability to tell the splitter that always disable subtitles unless a forced flag or a default flag is present. Basically the same default behavior it has now, with the exception being that if you don't find any matches or flags, disable subtitles instead of picking the first one. Just like Haali's default behavior.

This can be achieved now by commenting out line 1413 or LAVFDemuxer.cpp . Since no "best" is set if the above conditions are met, the end of the function is reached and "best" becomes the "none" track.
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:21   #5338  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Thats one of the oddities, though. I don't consider "default" to actually have that meaning. mkvmerge always flags one track as default, and if you don't remove that flag manually, you would always end up with a subtitle. Doesn't seem desirable to me, personally.

But the advanced mode will let you easily do that, if thats what you like. =)
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:25   #5339  |  Link
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All I want is forced Eng subs on English audio and Full English subs on everything else. Simples
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Old 8th September 2011, 17:26   #5340  |  Link
nevcairiel
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All I want is forced Eng subs on English audio and Full English subs on everything else. Simples
That'll even be possible with the new "simple" config.
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