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Old 21st July 2010, 20:38   #21  |  Link
SamuriHL
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I don't know the answer on the firmware update thing. James at SlySoft doesn't think it's possible to update older players with just a firmware update. I honestly don't know.

They're trying to "kill" the rental market now as it is by doing the 30 day delay nonsense. They're under the delusion that people will buy more BD's if they have to wait an extra 30 days to rent them. LOL! So yes, Hollywood WOULD shoot itself. No question.
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Old 21st July 2010, 20:57   #22  |  Link
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As long as speculation appears to be the order of the day:

If (and I don't know why this would be the case) DVDs are not subjected to this protection, with more and more people realizing that most BluRay disc "Extras" are of little or no more interest/value than those of DVDs - and that the upconverting playback quality of most newer BluRay players ranges from "quite acceptable" to "excellent" - it's conceivable that the viewing public might redirect more of its entertainment dollars to good ol' DVDs (Yes, I consider the "new" BluRay 3D to be nothing more than a marketing ploy)...
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Old 21st July 2010, 21:01   #23  |  Link
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That's possible, too. Really depends on how many people backup their library, and how many of those will be affected by this. (I.E. using hardware players that contain Cinavia) Since the PS3 is one of the most popular BD players out there, I can see this becoming an issue for many people. It's the media streaming people that I'm most concerned about, though. Most of those devices don't have the option of playing the original like the BD player people do. So, for their device to be useful at all, it can't support Cinavia. That's a real slap in the face to that group. Anyway, we'll see if DVD's start getting this, too, as it's technically possible.
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Old 21st July 2010, 21:10   #24  |  Link
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Technically possible on modern devices, sure, but think about how many DVD players can't receive firmware updates - and think about how many non-bleeding edge users that would alienate. IMO that's even more of a shot in the studios' own feet than putting it in BDs.
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Old 21st July 2010, 21:15   #25  |  Link
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I agree. This whole protection is idiotic for many reasons. But, I know that it's a requirement for any AACS LA licensed players to support it. You can bet that means the big 3 software players will get it soon, too. As for DVD, the only reason I could see to add it there is to close off a potential loophole for BD. If what I'm currently working on works, for example, then not putting it on the DVD allows people to remux the AC3 or DTS audio stream from the DVD into a backup of the BD. That'll bypass it completely. So, any time they release an open audio stream, it defeats the purpose of even bothering for the BD. Yea, I know, it's not HD audio. But, will that matter to the pirates they're trying to stop? Seems unlikely given the format of choice they're using these days. It's going to annoy those of us who buy a large library of discs and want to protect that investment by making backups. Not to mention I like having my whole library in an easy to use format (MKV) on my HTPC so I can stream it anywhere in my house without having to go grab the original off the shelf. Very convenient. If they stop people from being able to do those things, they very well may kill BD completely.
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Old 21st July 2010, 21:22   #26  |  Link
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Maybe now people will stop questioning my BluRay to HD-DVD converting...
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Old 21st July 2010, 21:28   #27  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by setarip_old View Post
Maybe now people will stop questioning my BluRay to HD-DVD converting...
LOL. I suppose that's one way to go. It's a pretty sure bet that there aren't any HD DVD players that support Cinavia out there. Personally I'd rather just convert everything (including my HD DVD's) to MKV and be done with it. Given the rock solid performance I get with ffdshow in all DShow apps (and WMP/7MC with Win7DSTweaker), I'm set using that method. It's the hardware people I worry about. If they can hold on to their players that don't support it without being forced to update, that's great. The PS3 users are not so lucky as they're forced to update to be able to play games online. But, hey, if you're happy with your workaround, it's all good.
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Old 21st July 2010, 21:59   #28  |  Link
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If all they are doing is producing a non-audible signal, then can't this signal just be altered by adding noise?
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Old 21st July 2010, 22:33   #29  |  Link
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Not without destroying the audio. It's not just embedded in the "non-audible" range from what I understand. They engineered it to not be audible, but, it's deeply embedded in the original audio track before mastering. I don't quite understand how the whole thing works, but, I understand enough of it to know that without being able to first detect it inside the audio track, there's absolutely no way to think about removing it. Apparently this is from the same company that did the watermarks for DVD-A.
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Old 21st July 2010, 22:59   #30  |  Link
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This is perhaps a bit farfetched, but at this stage anythig goes:

Thusfar, all the testing has been predicated on what has been made public. Has anyone tried extracting the VIDEOstream and playing it by itself - to see if the "CINAVIA" protection is triggered?
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Old 21st July 2010, 23:11   #31  |  Link
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I'm doing a test that should more or less match that. I have it burning now. I took the AC3 track from the DVD and muxed it in with the video stream from the BD. I'm burning that to a BD-RE now and will test it. We'll see what happens.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 00:45   #32  |  Link
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Good bye, Cinavia. My BD-RE with the DVD's audio track muxed in works fine. No Cinavia. Understand that the *ONLY* difference from my disc that has Cinavia and the one that doesn't is a switch of the audio track. Chapters, subtitles, and the video track are all identical on both discs. So, there, you have a work around for any BD that comes with a DVD, as well.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 01:30   #33  |  Link
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So, there, you have a work around for any BD that comes with a DVD, as well.
Nice to know that's the case for the moment, at least.

It won't take much effort to make minor adjustments to vary total length of DVD versus BluRay, beginning "black space", opening studio credits, etc...
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Old 22nd July 2010, 01:37   #34  |  Link
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I don't consider it a permanent solution. The studios will likely just add it to the DVD next time. (This, btw, would be WHY they'd add it to the DVD. Not because DVD players can detect it, but, because ANY audio source not protected could be used to replace the audio on a protected backup) In any case, ALL of my testing has simply been academic. I have a solution. I just wanted to provide some real world data for people to mull over. I hope it's been useful and I'll continue to do more tests as time goes on.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 01:38   #35  |  Link
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Someone will have to study the differences (Is there some DVDs with PCM audio?) and then simulate Cinavia :Р

EDIT: What I mean is if you will be able to produce cinavia - you will be sure that you found what you looking for and not some random noise from the street. Then you can think of some counter-measure.

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Old 22nd July 2010, 01:39   #36  |  Link
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As I said in the initial post, it will be interesting to see what others may discover when they test their backups of the legitimate commercial BluRay on more current equipment.

I'm surprised there haven't been more participants to this thread, as the more information we all see and share, the better to hopefully separate truth from fiction...
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Old 22nd July 2010, 01:45   #37  |  Link
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Well, with only ONE disc out in the wild right now with this protection on it, and not a particular GREAT movie at that, it's not all that surprising. We'll have to see how many titles get this foolish protection going forward. AFAIK, all the studios have signed on board and the AACS LA has required all new players sold since Q4 2009 to have this protection detection in place. So yea, I suspect as we go along, this will become more and more of a problem for people.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 08:07   #38  |  Link
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Hmm, Let's hope they don't add similar copy protection to video stream.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 11:13   #39  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by setarip_old View Post
2) As a point of information, I did not hear or see anything unusual at the 20:03 point when playing back the video on my equipment
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The technology seems to require a 20 minute segment to be played for detection of this.
Just to avoid misconceptions: it has been speculated numerous times, that the actual detection of the watermark would take 20 minutes (because it's so hard to detect).
That is very, very unlikely. Consider, that you can (and it is officially condoned) simply pause playback for at least 10 minutes and you will get another 20 minutes of unmuted playback.
I suppose this type of reaction to the wm is embedded in the watermark itself - as other types of cinavia watermarks found on bootlegs seem to trigger it right away (haven't tried that myself, but it has been stated somewhere).

It's possibly just make it more difficult to defeat it - if every attempt to do so will require at least 20 minutes of testing afterwards.
Defeating it on cam recordings is a little more difficult anyway, as there is no real "unmarked" audio stream to compare with (the cam recording adds so much noise itself that you won't be able to tell the difference between a mark and trash frequencies), while with blu-rays there obviously is.

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to reliably detect the watermark in any chunk of a few seconds length taken out of the audio stream.

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Originally Posted by setarip_old View Post
we may discover that thusfar this protection has only been implemented regarding movie theater digital films, as a means of deterring true piracy via "cams" - and that's fine with me... [/Color]
Totally agreed. They could have gone on doing that for ages to come. But now, after introducing it to blu-rays, they've drawn so much attention to this protection, that it will probably not survive a year....

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Originally Posted by setarip_old View Post
it will be interesting to see what others may discover when they test their backups of the legitimate commercial BluRay on more current equipment.
So far I have only seen mentionings of the Pioneer BDP-V6000 having the detection on board. No actual confirmations so far.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 11:50   #40  |  Link
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am i being overly paranoid, could they put this in the PSP as well?
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