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Old 23rd December 2009, 18:16   #1  |  Link
scharfis_brain
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Capture Cards with reasonably good Y/C separation (comb filter)

Hello everyone.

I am looking for a PCI (PCIe) based capture card, that has a good Y/C comb filter like the ones seen in recent Flatscreen TVs.

The internal Comb filter of the SAA7134 chip of my current capture card doesn't please me any more. Even with additional postprocessing via AVISynth.

Are there any suggestions to follow?
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Old 23rd December 2009, 22:19   #2  |  Link
dannotto
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Every card with 3D comb filter will be better. Saa7134 has a decent 2D adaptive comb filter but today are available better solution. Only 3D comb filters can do perfect separation (on static and low motion scenes) between luminace signal over the chrominace signal. I think you also need uncompressed output. Some card (Asus MyCinema-PE6300) has 3D filter but is active only for mpeg ouput.

My hint:
Theatre 550: 2D comb filter with 5 line scaning + 3D comb filter
Theatre 650 or Theatre HD 750: 2D comb filter with 5 line + 3D Motion Adaptive comb filter
The only card (PCIe) with Theatre HD 750 available today is ASUS My Cinema-ES2-750.

Other cards with 3D comb filter are driven by Saa7163, Saa7164 (ASUS EHD2-100, Hauppage 2250, Compro E900F, Compro E850F) or Conexant CX23887, CX23888 and CX23418. How good are these? I don`t know.

If you buy ATI then follow these tips:
Do not install the drivers from the CD because they are old. Download the latest version of the ATI site
Uses the latest stable version of VirtualDub
Uses lossless compression with HuffYUV or Lagarith. HuffYUV requires ~ 27 GB per hour (Pal). Lagarith compress better but needs more CPU power. Also has support for multicore CPU.

At Video tick:
Overlay,
Video Source> composite Capture Pin > 25 Frame rate, Color space YUY2, Output size 720x576
Capture Filter: Filters properties > you can raise the volume up to 255, Video decoder > Pal
Crossbar: Video Composite In
Output > Audio Decoder Out = audio line in <Input, Also tick Related Link Stream
Compresion > Huffyuv or Lagarith

At Audio tick these:
Enable audio capture
Volume meter
Don`t tick Enable Audio Playback during capture because you get dropped frames
Capture Device
Source Audio> Audio Line

At Capture tick only > Timing > Do not resync between audio and video stream
Automatically disable resync when integrated audio / video capture is detected

From the File> Set Capture File

Also from Task Manager Set High priority for VirtualDub, Antivirus should be off during capture

Comb filter from Saa713x and ATI 3D in action (static scenes):
Attached Images
  

Last edited by dannotto; 23rd December 2009 at 22:27.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 23:17   #3  |  Link
scharfis_brain
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Thanks for these hints.

I am looking for capture-only cards.
So graphics cards with Video-In are no option.
Especially ATI based cards. I personally banned ATI, cause of their ridiculous drivers (catalyst control panel).

Currently I got this capture card: Terratec Cinergy 400 PCI.

I'd like to replace it.
The replacement should offer Composite as well as S-Video inputs, and optionally a TV-Tuner.
YUY2 capturing is mandatory.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 23:48   #4  |  Link
dannotto
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I mentioned nothing about Ati AIW card. All my recommendations are dedicate TV tuner cards. Theatre 550, Theatre 650 are ATI ADC which power tv tuner cards (Sapphire Theatrix, http://www1.sapphiretech.com/en/prod...s.php?gpid=114 PowerColor 550 or 650 http://www.powercolor.com/global/pro...0pro_pcie.html, http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_I...2Tt&templete=2).
You can have nVidia video card and ATI tuner. If don`t like ATI and if look for 3D comb then your options are Philips ADC (now NXP) or Conexant ADC mentionated above. And only if are able to send uncompressed signal. I can`t guarantee YUY2 for these.
To work dedicated ATI tuners need just WDM drivers. Catalyst control panel is for video cards.

Last edited by dannotto; 24th December 2009 at 00:15.
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Old 24th December 2009, 00:10   #5  |  Link
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Ah thanks. I didn't know that ATI also offers capture only boards.

I will have a look around.
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Old 24th December 2009, 14:27   #6  |  Link
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dannotto, those images are really good for showing the difference a 3D comb filter makes.

scharfis, if your current card has an s-video input, you could try using some other device in between your composite source and the capture card which might have a better comb filet built in, e.g. a DVD recorder (or the flat screen TV you mentioned, but that would be unlikely to give an s-video outpot I would think).
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Old 24th December 2009, 19:24   #7  |  Link
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@dannotto

Can I download that test pattern from somewhere? I'd be interested to compare Pixelmagic PDI Deluxe(SAA7118) and Datavideo TBC-1000(composite->s-video) with your results.
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Old 24th December 2009, 21:31   #8  |  Link
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I'm sure a Snell & Wilcox testcard can't be downloaded, not legally anyway.
Thanks for the comparison dannotto, I also have a SAA7134 based card and didn't know how bad the comb filter was compared to others.
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Old 24th December 2009, 23:43   #9  |  Link
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I have sources that are composite only.
So S-Video Inputs are no option.


The difference of these images is really impressive.
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Old 25th December 2009, 14:44   #10  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok View Post
@dannotto

Can I download that test pattern from somewhere? I'd be interested to compare Pixelmagic PDI Deluxe(SAA7118) and Datavideo TBC-1000(composite->s-video) with your results.
The pattern can be found on Digital Video Essentials disc (not free content).
Pixelmagic PDI Deluxe has two ADC: SAA7118 (the big chip) and BT878. If SAA7118 handle composite input the quality will be the same like in the picture posted by me because SAA7118 and SAA713x have the same characteristics regarding video processing. SAA713x integrates a demodulator and PCI interface. If BT878 process composite signal (unlikely) the quality will be lower because comb filter is basic (notch filter).
Datavideo TBC-1000 is driven by Philips SAA7114 ADC, part of the same family of 9 bit with the same adaptive comb filter. So, both devices (Pixelmagic PDI Deluxe and Datavideo TBC-1000) must have the same performance in terms of Y/C separation.

A free benchmark disc with EIA 1956 resolution patern is is given by Tvblink. You must download the ISO image and burn on DVD blank. http://www.tvblink.com/i_dvd.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by zilog jones View Post
I also have a SAA7134 based card and didn't know how bad the comb filter was compared to others.
Very few tv tuner cards have 3D comb filter. Most of them use a adaptive comb filter.

Last edited by dannotto; 25th December 2009 at 15:00.
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Old 25th December 2009, 15:41   #11  |  Link
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dannotto, nothing of what I have seen thus far from the ASUS My Cinema-ES2-750 mentions NTSC capture, does that mean that you can't capture NTSC stuff with it? Although I live in Uruguay which is a PAL country, many home made (and commercial too, if I recall correctly) VHSs are NTSC...

extra question: if using a card like the abovementioned one, do you guys think a full featured VHS deck like, say, the Panasonic 1980 or the JVC 9900 would be better than any VCR+an external TBC like the Datavideo TBC-1000 juhok mentioned?
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Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.
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Old 25th December 2009, 16:35   #12  |  Link
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@dannotto
Thanks for the info and link. I've been looking for such a disk for a while now. I guess there's no need to test any of my comb filters when the results are known already. I rarely need composite input so this haven't got my attention before. I've been eyeballing Blackmagic line of capture devices. Need something that'll work with 64bit OS/Win7 and the input options are impressive (eg. Decklink Studio).

I checked my other TBC, 1T-TBC and it has same SAA7114 and SAA7129. Picture attached.

@Chainmax
Internal TBC in JVC/Panasonic line of decks and external TBC like TBC-1000 are for different purposes and often(but not always) I find myself needing both. Internal TBC fixes visible time base error where external TBC will clean the signal to prevent framedrops etc. Sometimes JVC's internal TBC will produce jitter with bad tapes and you have to turn it off. Panasonic is better in this regard (limited experience with Panasonic so far).

Then again, when I capture from Sony EV-S9000 Hi8 deck its internal TBC and framesync are stable enough that I never need external TBC. Same with professional BetacamSP deck (no surprise there).
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Old 25th December 2009, 16:58   #13  |  Link
dannotto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainmax View Post
dannotto, nothing of what I have seen thus far from the ASUS My Cinema-ES2-750 mentions NTSC capture, does that mean that you can't capture NTSC stuff with it?
Yes it can. Has worldwide support.
Quote:
many home made (and commercial too, if I recall correctly) VHSs are NTSC...
Not true. Paraguay and Uruguay, has the PAL standard 625 line/50 fields per second system with the NTSC subcarrier frequency. The VHS tapes recorded in your country are in PAL. To see these tapes you need PAL (european) vcr.
Quote:
extra question: if using a card like the abovementioned one, do you guys think a full featured VHS deck like, say, the Panasonic 1980 or the JVC 9900 would be better than any VCR+an external TBC like the Datavideo TBC-1000 juhok mentioned?
Yes, will be better. For NTSC tapes you need US model. For PAL tapes (tapes made in Uruguay and Europe) you need Pal VCR. Most of the Pal vcr can also play NTSC tape in PAL60. TBC from Panasonic PAL SVHS vcr is off during NTSC tapes playback. This card don`t support PAL60 system.
DataVideo TBC-1000 act like a frame synchronizer. I will help with weak vertical synch but will not fix time base errors (wavy lines). TBC from JVC and Panasonic SVHS vcr can do true time base correction.

You should look for PAL JVC SVHS vcr with DigiPure (7600 model and up).

Panasonic PAL SVHS vcr with TBC and DNR
Panasonic NV-FS 200 a.k.a. Panasonic AG-1980P (NTSC version)
Panasonic NV-HS 950
Panasonic NV-HS 860
Panasonic NV-HS 930
Panasonic NV-HS 960
Panasonic NV-SV 121

Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok
I guess there's no need to test any of my comb filters when the results are known already.
There may be differences due to build device quality.
juhok, the Asus My Cinema 750 have Win7 support. For analog SD this card is ok. If you need SDI and HD take Blackmagic. For a complete SD professional solution you should look at AJA XENA LS.
http://www.aja.com/products/xena/xena-lse-ls.php

Last edited by dannotto; 25th December 2009 at 17:30.
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Old 26th December 2009, 01:57   #14  |  Link
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@dannotto

Thanks for the AJA XENA tip, I've somehow missed this option completely. With quick reading to the specs and drivers it seems almost too good to be true. It might even work with Virtualdub with the WDM drivers(?). It seem to have reasonable capturing program of it's own with avisynth readable output so VD is not a must (I don't fancy expensive NLE software for this simple task).

About the JVC/Digipure.. owning half a dozen different JVC models I'd say turn it off and use avisynth (if time is not important)!

@scharfis_brain

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

Here's some tests I made;

DVD (Y*C)> 1T-TBC (Y/C)> Sweetspot/PDI Deluxe
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/1T-TBC_bleeding.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/1T-TBC_resolution.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/1T...tion_lines.png
DVD (Y*C)> TBC-1000 (Y/C)> Sweetspot/PDI Deluxe
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/TBC-1000_bleeding.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/TB...resolution.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/TB...tion_lines.png
DVD (Y*C)> Sweetspot/PDI Deluxe
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/PD...t_bleeding.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/PD...resolution.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/PD...tion_lines.png
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Old 27th December 2009, 11:06   #15  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok
About the JVC/Digipure.. owning half a dozen different JVC models I'd say turn it off and use avisynth (if time is not important)!
It is a bad idea to turn off TBC. Tbc errors have a negative effect on noise removal and compression. Even in still areas is much movement because pixels are jumping from one place to another. Noise removal and compression efficiency is increased when the image is time base errors free (steady image). At JVC vcr, TBC and DNR are tied together. So if you turn off DNR you also turn off the TBC. At Panasonic SVHS vcr both functions have dedicated buttons. You can enable only TBC and leave off DNR.
Avisynth power is almost unlimited on noise removal but have no solutions for time base errors.

1T-TBC has a low bandwidth that will affect the quality from SuperVHS tapes sources. The levels are wrong with this device. TBC-1000 has an appropriate bandwidth and can be used with SVHS tapes.
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Old 27th December 2009, 15:00   #16  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannotto View Post
It is a bad idea to turn off TBC. Tbc errors have a negative effect on noise removal and compression. Even in still areas is much movement because pixels are jumping from one place to another. Noise removal and compression efficiency is increased when the image is time base errors free (steady image). At JVC vcr, TBC and DNR are tied together. So if you turn off DNR you also turn off the TBC. At Panasonic SVHS vcr both functions have dedicated buttons. You can enable only TBC and leave off DNR.
Avisynth power is almost unlimited on noise removal but have no solutions for time base errors.
Not true. You can turn noise reduction off seperately from TBC in most JVC models. Only one that I've owned that doesn't allow this is S7965.This is wrong (read next message).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannotto View Post
1T-TBC has a low bandwidth that will affect the quality from SuperVHS tapes sources. The levels are wrong with this device. TBC-1000 has an appropriate bandwidth and can be used with SVHS tapes.
Again, not true. Levels are not wrong. I just didn't match them with this test. 1T has AGC that will affect the levels - it is different that TBC-1000 but it is not wrong. Also the low bandwith is only seen at Composite->S-Video seperation. It's fine when using S-Video->S-video (I was testing only the comb filter here and in that regard it failed). 1T has it's share of problems but lack of bandwith hasn't been one of them in normal Y/C usage.

Last edited by juhok; 27th December 2009 at 22:04. Reason: Incorrect information
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Old 27th December 2009, 21:25   #17  |  Link
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Originally Posted by juhok View Post
Not true. You can turn noise reduction off seperately from TBC in most JVC models. Only one that I've owned that doesn't allow this is S7965.
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...8&postcount=18
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Old 27th December 2009, 22:00   #18  |  Link
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@dannotto

I stand corrected regarding TBC/NR & 3R issue. I checked the menus and manuals on my decks. I've somehow been constantly misreading/interpreting the "3R" as "NR" in the menu. I apologize.
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Old 27th December 2009, 22:39   #19  |  Link
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I've got a JVC HR S-9500 and its temporal noise reduction filter is always on.
I cannot disable it no matter what I do.
the TBC/NR button just toggles the TBC. and Digital 3R makes temporal smear just worse.

This is the reason why I don't want to use the JVC any more.

with the forced temporal pre-denoising of this VHS deck every attempt to do a proper camera image stabilization (deshaker) will fail.

So I need a S-VHS deck with EDIT mode (no vertical chroma blur and no sharpening) and also with a TBC but no DNR.
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Old 27th December 2009, 23:01   #20  |  Link
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As dannotto said the high-end Panasonic VCRs offer TBC with separate DNR. I have an NV-HS960 and it's pretty good (has lots of features completely useless for just playback though like Tape Library and fancy brushed aluminium bezel), though I find the TBC makes things a bit worse on very good tapes (outside of the odd dropout).
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