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Old 4th December 2009, 23:48   #1  |  Link
albain
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ffdshow tryout project : HD audio discussion

LAST EDIT : 01/02/2010

Hi,

we now have on FFDShow Tryout a fully functional HD audio bitstream to the HDMI output of your sound/graphic adapter.

What is bitstream :
first there are compressed formats (MP3, MP2, AC3,DTS) and uncompressed formats (PCM, LPCM).

Among those compressed formats there are the new high definition audio formats : Dolby True HD, DTS-HD HR (High Res), DTS-HD MA (Master Audio, the best format)
There is also Dolby Digital Plus which is an improvement of Dolby Digital but less good than Dolby TrueHD
Lastly, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are considered as lossless quality, which means that once uncompressed the quality is even as if they were not compressed at all

Compressed formats need to be decoded before sending them to your receiver or speakers.

However, it is possible to let the stream go compressed and send it to your receiver so that it takes in charge the decoding.
This was the case for AC3 and DTS : it is called SPDIF (going through a numeric opticial or coaxial output)

Now, new HD audio formats such as Dolby True HD, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD (High Resolution or Master Audio) can also be sent compressed to the receiver.
This is called bitstream.
A HDMI output is required to do that (SPDIF has not a sufficient bandwidth).

This is interesting as receivers can be considered as better decoders than software decoders and furthermore there is no existing free DTS HD software decoder yet.

What has been done on FFDShow Tryout :
- bitstream support for TrueHD, DTS-HD (HR & MA) using the new radeon 5xxx series on Vista and Windows 7 (32 & 64 bits). Depending on the OS and the format, some audio renderers may not work. Try several : directsound, waveout and MPC renderer
- TrueHD, DTS HD and Dolby Digital Plus bistream are working on the xonar (Vista and Windows 7). waveout and Arcsoft renderer work well.

What needs to be fixed or improved :
- Dolby Digital Plus bitstream on ATI 5xxx : this is likely due to a driver issue (ATI drivers don't support DD+ yet)
- auzentech : no HD bitstream support because the streams are encrypted by the software (powerdvd) to the audio driver. Ask Auzentech to bring support for third party players
- LPCM support to be added (on 24 bits sampling at 48000/96000/192000 Hz, LPCM 16 bits is already supported)

The HD audio bitstream is now integrated to FFDShow Tryout daily builds and the bugs have been fixed since revision 3241

Supported (and tested) hardware This list may grow up in the future
- ATI Radeon 5xxx series
- Asus Xonar
- Intel clarksdale


Setup :
- Install FFDShow Tryout revision 3241 or greater, 32 or 64 bits
- On Vista : you will need the MPC audio renderer. It is very recent and in early stage but it is functional.
- On windows 7 : default directsound renderer should work on most bistream formats. Otherwise use the waveout renderer or MPC renderer
- If you have a xonar : won't work with directsound renderer, the best is to use the the arcsoft renderer (on a dos window in administrator mode : regsvr32 (total media path)\codecs\asrenderer.dll). Otherwise try the waveout or MPC renderer (don't know if they will work)
- Player software :
1/MPC-HC : you will have to grab a very recent version of MPC-HC (revision 1413 or greater). If you don't have the right version the MPC mpeg splitter will break the DTS HD streams and the MPC renderer won't work
2/Other directshow players (WMP,...) : you will need MPC-HC *recent* standalone filters (revision 1413 or greater). Just register MPC audio renderer and MPC mpeg splitter. For MKV Haali media splitter should work too


Status for ATI 5xxx series owners
There are 2 know issues with ATI 5xxx :
- Audio dropouts that occur every few seconds : this issue is not caused by FFDShow and it occur on any software player without hardware acceleration (no DXVA, or called software decoding). Please post a ticket to AMD support for this
- The receiver that aren't caught up by the radeon : also a driver bug, there is a workaround for this, called "tulli's override", the person who found this hack (see below)

(with-if needed- or without tulli's override monitor driver)

- Windows Seven:
Just with Ati 9.12 hotfix drivers:
DTSHD: no problem with PDVD9 and MPC-HC (ffdshow 54+ MPC Audio Renderer)
THD: No problem with PDVD9 and the best renderer is Ati HDMI Output for MPC-HC (with ffdshow 54)

Realtek 239 over 12 hotfix:
Both HD formats may use Default DirectSound Device.

- Windows Vista:
ffdshow HD bitstreaming only works with Ati 9.12 hotfix drivers by alone using MPC HC Audio renderer on Vista; Realtek 239 doesn't work.
While PDVD9 can work even Realtek 239 is loaded over 9.12 hotfix.

Last edited by albain; 1st February 2010 at 21:35. Reason: Results updated
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Old 4th December 2009, 23:59   #2  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albain View Post
Thanks SamuriHL for all your efforts

This is a big problem when you can't reproduce the crash in debug mode. Have you tried to run it without vs debugging into ?
I mean there are 2 ways to debug : either attach to the process and run it, or let the player run without visual studio and when it will crash it will ask you if you want to debug

Last resort is to add DPRINTF but this is very difficult to narrow the problem down. I will perform some deeper analysis of the code, but I need a max of info

Could you send me logs whith working and "crashing" samples in that case ?

Otherwise I have opened a new thread for HD audio bitstream.

We have taken this one into hostage enough

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...75#post1349575
Ok, let's just continue our discussion here.

Yea, I tried opening it up in debug after the fact, but, the processes have all terminated and I don't have a debug version of MPC-HC. (Nor do I really wanna go down that path.) Let me get back to a debug version, but, the timings on that version are all messed up. It runs in VERY slow motion. And in debug it didn't crash regardless of what I tried. Um, I can definitely provide you with logs but I don't think they're going to be useful.
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Old 5th December 2009, 00:06   #3  |  Link
albain
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You don't need a debug version of MPC actually.

You're saying that with debug build you never get crash whatever vs is attached or not ?

This is normal that it is running slow, with dropouts and so on

you can disable allowDPRINTF (to 0 in registry) to improve performances and maybe get closer to a crash situation

Last edited by albain; 5th December 2009 at 00:09.
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Old 5th December 2009, 00:13   #4  |  Link
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I'm saying that when I allow MPC to crash and it gives me the option to debug, it brings me into studio and shows me that all processes are already terminated and never shows me where the crash happened. Is the thing multi-threaded? Maybe the threads are ending before we get the option to debug. I'm not sure. I've not had to deal with this kind of thing before. In any case, I'm off for the rest of the evening. I will DEFINITELY look into this more tomorrow. I will figure something out for us, don't worry.
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Old 5th December 2009, 00:15   #5  |  Link
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OH, right, I forgot. Debug version of ffdshow simply works. So I can't use the debug version to repro this problem. ARGH! This has GOT to be some weird timing bug. Almost guaranteed.
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Old 5th December 2009, 00:22   #6  |  Link
albain
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No problem. Actually I am impressed that you set up ffdshow compilation so quickly, I spent much more time at first

Normally when a program crash this is a just in time debugging : you get exactly where it crashed in the callstack. There are several threads but vs will debug all of them (like in eclipse you can switch from one thread to another and get its call stack).
This issue you get is typical to Mpc : when you debug with it, MPC Will continue to play the video so you'd better have a long video

. Maybe it will be easier with graphstudio (if you get crashes with it too).

Edit: there is something you can get, which is the reason of the crash that is displayed in visual studio debug window even if you compiled in release mode

Thanks again. I will do a break too, it is 0:23 am in Paris ;-)

Last edited by albain; 5th December 2009 at 00:28.
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Old 5th December 2009, 01:04   #7  |  Link
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The headline must have been "HD audio bitstreaming over ffdshow tryouts."
Headline "HD audio discussion" is unsuffucient to me.

Last edited by rica; 5th December 2009 at 02:15.
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Old 5th December 2009, 01:17   #8  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albain View Post
Hi,

This is interesting as receivers can be considered as better decoders than software decoders and furthermore there is no existing DTS HD software decoder yet
I think you meant there is no existing free DTS HD software decoder yet.

Last edited by rica; 5th December 2009 at 02:17.
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Old 5th December 2009, 01:17   #9  |  Link
Skinleech
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Oh, one thing I meant to add to my post regarding beta 46 was that I still cannot bitstream HD codecs if standard lossy formats are set to bitstream in the audio config. As soon as I uncheck Dolby Digital and DTS it's fine.

Will try my local files tomorrow and report back playabck issues, if any. Will take logs of the problematic files.
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Old 5th December 2009, 01:48   #10  |  Link
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New results from my testing. Success with xonar, mpc-hc,ffdshow,arcsoft renderer through and through with dts-hd from a mkv container no problems and i can skip anywhere in the movie and the dts-hd picks right back up as it should. I remember someone else had success with a mkv container. I am going to try true-hd from a mkv container and see if it works and that the true-hd can not dropout completely after skipping ahead or behind as it does from a m2ts container. It is truly odd that the same movie with dts-hd in a m2ts container crashes mpc-hc and not in a mkv container. Is it possibly the splitter?

Also remember the app crash log from mpc-hc i sent you Samirhl, well vista thinks its ffdshow.ax that is crashing mpc-hc, well anyway that is probably what your debugging anyway and good luck with it.

Cheers,
Sub24ox7

Last edited by sub24ox7; 5th December 2009 at 01:56.
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Old 5th December 2009, 02:59   #11  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albain View Post
No problem. Actually I am impressed that you set up ffdshow compilation so quickly, I spent much more time at first
I thought it took longer than it should have, but, there were a bunch of unknowns involved. I didn't know I needed yasm, boost, and I had trouble finding where the damn library import stuff was in VS 2008. Then I had compile problems...I commented out the stuff that was breaking. LOL. In any case, now that I have it set up, I can probably work on building us a 64 bit version at some point.

Quote:
Normally when a program crash this is a just in time debugging : you get exactly where it crashed in the callstack. There are several threads but vs will debug all of them (like in eclipse you can switch from one thread to another and get its call stack).
This issue you get is typical to Mpc : when you debug with it, MPC Will continue to play the video so you'd better have a long video

. Maybe it will be easier with graphstudio (if you get crashes with it too).

Edit: there is something you can get, which is the reason of the crash that is displayed in visual studio debug window even if you compiled in release mode

Thanks again. I will do a break too, it is 0:23 am in Paris ;-)
Hmm, graphstudio is a thought. And yea, I always thought it should break into the stack trace even if the threads ended. It didn't which was annoying. I'll play with this more in the morning. We just got back from dinner and are going to watch some shows. Paris, eh? VERY nice. I've always wanted to go some day. Enjoy! I'll work on this tomorrow.
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Old 5th December 2009, 03:02   #12  |  Link
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Originally Posted by sub24ox7 View Post
New results from my testing. Success with xonar, mpc-hc,ffdshow,arcsoft renderer through and through with dts-hd from a mkv container no problems and i can skip anywhere in the movie and the dts-hd picks right back up as it should. I remember someone else had success with a mkv container. I am going to try true-hd from a mkv container and see if it works and that the true-hd can not dropout completely after skipping ahead or behind as it does from a m2ts container. It is truly odd that the same movie with dts-hd in a m2ts container crashes mpc-hc and not in a mkv container. Is it possibly the splitter?

Also remember the app crash log from mpc-hc i sent you Samirhl, well vista thinks its ffdshow.ax that is crashing mpc-hc, well anyway that is probably what your debugging anyway and good luck with it.

Cheers,
Sub24ox7
Yea, I know what's crashing, just not why. Yet. Give me time to mess with the code tomorrow. I've had plenty of experience debugging stuff, so, if I have to go the hard route I will do so. What bothers me is that it's not getting very far before it crashes. I have some other thoughts on how to trace it, too. We'll find it and squash it.

If you have time and don't mind, can you make an mkv out of one of the movies that crashes for you and see if it no longer crashes? Curious if it doesn't like the container.
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Old 5th December 2009, 03:03   #13  |  Link
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46 gives me the same results as 44. Multichannel and after my tweeking I have to max MPC and AVR is 80+. Not good
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Old 5th December 2009, 03:16   #14  |  Link
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Can you post a detailed list of your setup? Hardware, OS, settings in ffdshow/mpc, etc. Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this.
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Old 5th December 2009, 03:32   #15  |  Link
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Okay when I remuxed the hangover into a mkv container i can skip forward or backward with the xonar and true-hd track without loosing audio but when the same track is in a m2ts container is looses audio and can't recover. So to recap no problems with either dts-hd and true-hd when in a mkv container so there is an issue with the mpeg splitter or something there roundabout. That is just my guess, oh and a bug with ffdshow when trying to play dts-hd in a m2ts container which causes the app crash.

Last edited by sub24ox7; 5th December 2009 at 03:35.
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Old 5th December 2009, 04:52   #16  |  Link
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Oh I didn't see that you had asked whether the same movie crashed in a mkv container. Well with the xonar(which is all i have i don't have a 5*** series ati card i have two 4870 in crossfire on one compter and nvidia 9400 chipset on the xonar computer and other various cards on other computers). Back to the point the same dts-hd movie doesn't crash in a mkv container which is very odd to me. i have tried various dts-hd movies from inglorious basterds to terminator salvation which is branched so i had to play it from the mpls file to pulp fiction and a dozen other dts-hd movies and they all crashed immediately as soon as i tried to play them with mpc-h, but as soon as i remux one of them into a mkv container they play.
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Old 5th December 2009, 05:15   #17  |  Link
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I've got some interesting results, too. I found the offending m2ts file from Monsters Inc. When I try to play it, MPC-HC crashes in immediately. If I attach the debugger to it, it doesn't crash. If I switch to the ATI DS renderer, it doesn't crash. GraphStudio works fine no matter what I try. If I had to guess I'd say there's a slight issue when parsing certain m2ts DTS-HD MA files in MPC-HC. Does anyone know if there's another splitter that'd work for us?
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Old 5th December 2009, 05:21   #18  |  Link
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@albain

When you get a chance, look at this log:

http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d154c01eb

DTS-HD MA, 96000, 8 channel

It plays in ATI DS, but, regular default DS crashes instantly without even logging anything to debugview. And ONLY this one m2ts. It's about 30 seconds long. The others all appear to play fine on the disc.
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Old 5th December 2009, 07:09   #19  |  Link
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SHL, my Blockbuster didn't have any Monsters Inc BDs, I'll check again tomorrow.
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Old 5th December 2009, 10:09   #20  |  Link
albain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinleech View Post
Oh, one thing I meant to add to my post regarding beta 46 was that I still cannot bitstream HD codecs if standard lossy formats are set to bitstream in the audio config. As soon as I uncheck Dolby Digital and DTS it's fine.

Will try my local files tomorrow and report back playabck issues, if any. Will take logs of the problematic files.
Could you post logs when AC3/DTS are checked ?

Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
@albain

When you get a chance, look at this log:

http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d154c01eb

DTS-HD MA, 96000, 8 channel

It plays in ATI DS, but, regular default DS crashes instantly without even logging anything to debugview. And ONLY this one m2ts. It's about 30 seconds long. The others all appear to play fine on the disc.
The logs seem to be okay
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