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Old 3rd January 2012, 12:14   #11761  |  Link
naoan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmaster View Post
For obvious reasons, it is a long and uncomfortable way.
The same can be said about the external 3dlut-file. Most of users as and I not able to properly create 3dlut-file, using, for example, yCMS, because for it needs to understand something in colorimetry.

Or switching parameter in the madVR settings: it is simple and very convenient.
Indeed it is, but it ensure no intervention to madvr or any other renderer out there. Remembering to put --range tv (as of r2120, --fullrange off on older revision) on x264 when you encode video would spare you this trouble as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
@zmaster, just press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+I twice to switch between limited <-> full range input.
Arr, I never knew about this feature, any chance to make it as an option on the setting?

Last edited by naoan; 3rd January 2012 at 12:46.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 13:15   #11762  |  Link
noee
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Re: IVTC on NTSC DVDs. Here's what I've seen:

I have two test scenarios, the first is a simple rip to MKV of a NTSC DVD (older DVD, film):
Code:
MediaInfo shows:
Display aspect ratio             : 16:9
Original display aspect ratio    : 16:9
Frame rate                       : 59.940 fps
Original frame rate              : 29.970 fps
Standard                         : NTSC
Color space                      : YUV
Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
Bit depth                        : 8 bits
Compression mode                 : Lossy

Eac3to shows:
1: MPEG2, 480i60 /1.001 (16:9)
The second is a DVD playback from ripped VOB structure (newer DVD, film):
Code:
MediaInfo shows:
Width                            : 720 pixels
Height                           : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio             : 16:9
Frame rate                       : 23.976 fps
Standard                         : Component
Color space                      : YUV
Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
Bit depth                        : 8 bits
Scan type                        : Progressive
Scan order                       : 2:3 Pulldown
Compression mode                 : Lossy

Eac3to shows:
1: MPEG2, 480p24 /1.001 (16:9) with pulldown flags
I have to manually turn on deinterlacing *and* ivtc and my monitor has to be set to 24Hz before starting the movie. madVR OSD then shows "film mode, cadence 3:2" and I can see the IVTC queues and timings. Not sure if this is the expected workflow (it is cumbersome). I assumed IVTC was independent of deinterlacing.

Playback is smooth, without artifacts, render queue is the only one not full (10-11/16) but no drops or glitches. Using madVR (Libav) for MPEG2 decoding.

In CCC, I have both Auto Deint and Pulldown detection "On".
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Old 3rd January 2012, 16:02   #11763  |  Link
robpdotcom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
@zmaster, just press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+I twice to switch between limited <-> full range input.

@Everyone, I'd love to get some feedback about the IVTC algorithm introduced in v0.80. So far I've got a few complaints, which mostly seem to be caused by trying to IVTC material which wasn't properly telecined to start with. Does anybody use the new IVTC algorithm at all?? Does it work or does it not work? There's not a single "it works" or "it doesn't work" report for the most important purpose, namely 1080i60 broadcasts and NTSC DVDs.
I normally watch a good bit of 1080i60 broadcasts, but not much lately because during the holidays they're all re-runs. This week I'll be able to test a lot more.

When I have used madVR's IVTC, it either works fine, or I get stuttering - when I get stuttering, the OSD usually displays an unknown cadence (or, will fluctuate). Also, whenever I see stuttering, I always test with DScaler and it will show the same symptoms. Most of the time I see stuttering, it's on CBS broadcasts, which e-t172 has said are problematic. I don't know how to tell if a source is properly telecined, so I'll start to collect some more samples when I come across problems.

BTW: All of the telecined material I watch is from Windows Media Center 7 recordings (.wtv files). One thing I noticed about those recently: normally I use LAV splitter to play those through mpc-hc, but occasionally I need to use Microsoft's Stream Buffer Source splitter. When Microsoft's splitter is used, I cannot force madvr to switch to 24 or 23Hz. Renaming the files doesn't work - madVR will always switch to 59Hz. I thought that having 23p in the file name was supposed to override what the source splitter says?
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Last edited by robpdotcom; 3rd January 2012 at 16:08.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 16:19   #11764  |  Link
nlnl
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madshi
Quote:
@Everyone, I'd love to get some feedback about the IVTC algorithm introduced in v0.80.
Please have а look at that:
Quote:
Happy New Year!

Please have a look. This is file http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43376972/Cadence%2032322.mkv (DVD content) where Madvr detects (film mode) very exotic cadence (3:2:3:2:2).
Is the source content actually 25p transformed to 59,94i?
Shoud it be deinterlaced and decimated to 25p?
And that
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...86#post1546586

And I forced film mode (ivtc) for pure video content 59i (music clip). Sometime madvr detects unknown cadence and sometime it steadily detects 2:2 cadence (like the source is 29p).

Last edited by nlnl; 3rd January 2012 at 16:28.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 17:05   #11765  |  Link
madshi
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Two more hints about IVTC:

(1) For best results you should use a video decoder which properly forwards the telecine flags to madVR. Ideally use LAV Video Decoder or the madVR internal decoders. Do not use CoreAVC or ffdshow (at least not older ffdshow builds, not sure about the latest, it might be fixed there).
(2) Playback with 60Hz might not be optimal. If possible at all, try to playback at 24Hz.

@nlnl, that's not telecined material. It's some weird field blended stuff. IVTC cannot work for that.

@robpdotcom, samples would be great! Refresh rate switching doesn't play nice with IVTC atm.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 19:54   #11766  |  Link
ikarad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Two more hints about IVTC:

(1) For best results you should use a video decoder which properly forwards the telecine flags to madVR. Ideally use LAV Video Decoder or the madVR internal decoders. Do not use CoreAVC or ffdshow (at least not older ffdshow builds, not sure about the latest, it might be fixed there).
(2) Playback with 60Hz might not be optimal. If possible at all, try to playback at 24Hz.

@nlnl, that's not telecined material. It's some weird field blended stuff. IVTC cannot work for that.

@robpdotcom, samples would be great! Refresh rate switching doesn't play nice with IVTC atm.
@madshi
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
Thanks. RGB32 output with ffdshow works with madvr 0.8


Thanks. 3 questions


1) Problem with ivtc and ffdshow video decoder

If I use ffdshow video decoder, I can't use your ivtc.

I can use your ivtc only with your video decoder or lav video decoder.

Maybe it's a bug or not. But if it's not a bug is it possible to add support of ivtc with ffdshow H264 decoder?




2) When I use ivtc, mpc osd (in window mode) indicate 30 fps (fraps show 24fps i nwindows mode) and not 24 fps. Is it normal?
In ctrl+j here is:
deinterlacing on
film mode, cadence 3:2

3) in madvr here is in rendering settings:
adjust queue sizes to gpu ram size.

What means? By default it is checked. Is it good or not?
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Old 3rd January 2012, 22:29   #11767  |  Link
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In the never-ending quest for top notch quality… Are there any ATI users out there who have patched their Radeon cards to accept Firepro firmware in order to be able to output 10 bit color? If so, care to share your experience/comments?
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Old 3rd January 2012, 23:35   #11768  |  Link
Paladin77
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Originally Posted by whitestar999 View Post
it worked.setting decoder queue to 12 & rest of the queues & back buffer to 8 solved the problem.now i can play those 2 videos fine in full screen on 32" HD TV .
Glad its working for you. FWIW the specs in my sig are put as proof of concept that even a lower end system with somewhat acceptable specs can be a useful tool for testing.

@Madshi tried IVTC on some NTSC DVDs so far no problems, no artifacts, stuttering or glitches. ATI CCC video enhancements are OFF and Deinterlacing is set to Auto while pulldown detection is set to ON. Anything I should be looking for?

NB also a few pages back. I kinda requested a CPU/GPU percentage in OSD ONLY if its possible.
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Old 4th January 2012, 00:25   #11769  |  Link
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Is IVTC only good for television series? Aren't most DVDs progressive? I opened 3-4 I had and they all said 23.97 fps
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Old 4th January 2012, 01:54   #11770  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
@zmaster, just press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+I twice to switch between limited <-> full range input.

@Everyone, I'd love to get some feedback about the IVTC algorithm introduced in v0.80. So far I've got a few complaints, which mostly seem to be caused by trying to IVTC material which wasn't properly telecined to start with. Does anybody use the new IVTC algorithm at all?? Does it work or does it not work? There's not a single "it works" or "it doesn't work" report for the most important purpose, namely 1080i60 broadcasts and NTSC DVDs.
Unfortunately, I've mostly been watching Blu-ray recently, and not much of that either due to the holidays. It wasn't entirely clear to me, is the IVTC filter purely for decimating NTSC content to 24p, or should it work with any film content?

With the NTSC disc I tried, it's constantly dropping a large number of frames and playback is far from smooth. (so it's not just that it's counting the repeated frames that were dropped)

It does seem to have issues with PAL discs that I've tried. The Sweet Hereafter seems to be a good test for deinterlacers, as it now seems to mostly work correctly at 24Hz with IVTC, detecting the 2:2 cadence and having mostly smooth playback (previously all madVR deinterlacing at 24Hz was terrible) but at some points it changes to odd cadences such as 5:3:4:4, and there are still dropped frames every few minutes even when it sticks to 2:2. (but not constantly increasing) It's only using about 10% CPU on my system, so that doesn't seem to be it.

I also have some anime content which frankly, I don't know if it's supposed to be video/film (I would assume film) but it doesn't seem to be able to figure out the cadence (it does sometimes jump to 2:2 and 4:4 briefly) and I've not been able to get good playback with it no matter what deinterlacers I've tried. When playing back at 50Hz without IVTC enabled, it looks a whole lot better, but then I have PAL speed-up. I get the feeling this would be a lot easier if my TV supported 48Hz from the PC.

Samples

Would it be possible to add an explicit 2:2 mode, or does that seem redundant?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltron View Post
In the never-ending quest for top notch quality… Are there any ATI users out there who have patched their Radeon cards to accept Firepro firmware in order to be able to output 10 bit color? If so, care to share your experience/comments?
I'm not sure that there's any point to getting 10-bit out of the card when there's barely any software that will actually give it 10-bit data. Madshi has said that it should be possible to get 10-bit out of current cards in Fullscreen Exclusive mode in a future update. (which would use 10-bit precision from madVR)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
Is IVTC only good for television series? Aren't most DVDs progressive? I opened 3-4 I had and they all said 23.97 fps
What decoder are you using? I've only ever seen DVDs played back as 29.97 or 25fps. Most films that are "29.97" are 23.98 with repeated frames (3:2) but you need something to perform IVTC to actually drop the repeated frames and play correctly.
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Old 4th January 2012, 01:56   #11771  |  Link
dukey
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Quote:
It does seem to have issues with PAL discs that I've tried.
lol
IVTC is not for PAL.
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Old 4th January 2012, 02:14   #11772  |  Link
JarrettH
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
What decoder are you using? I've only ever seen DVDs played back as 29.97 or 25fps. Most films that are "29.97" are 23.98 with repeated frames (3:2) but you need something to perform IVTC to actually drop the repeated frames and play correctly.
Just the libavcodec in ffdshow. I checked with mediainfo out of curiosity and it shows 23.97. When I playback in madvr it also shows 25 fps. Does having IVTC in the nvidia control panel work with madvr?

Now that I own a few television series (The Kingdom, Riget, The Office UK) I see that my GT 240 drops frames likes crazy. It's a 29.97 thing I noticed. Now when I playback 29.97 content I switch to yadif and disable deinterlacing in madvr.

Last edited by JarrettH; 4th January 2012 at 03:39.
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Old 4th January 2012, 03:05   #11773  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukey View Post
lol
IVTC is not for PAL.
PAL discs are unplayable at 24Hz using madVR's deinterlacer without it, at least with Nvidia cards.

Last edited by 6233638; 4th January 2012 at 04:06.
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Old 4th January 2012, 05:55   #11774  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Paladin77 View Post
Glad its working for you. FWIW the specs in my sig are put as proof of concept that even a lower end system with somewhat acceptable specs can be a useful tool for testing.
i have an older 256mb redeon 4570 card in other laptop & it can't play those 2 files smoothly in full screen on a full HD screen.according to notebookcheck graphics card ranking 4570 is more powerful than 3430 so could you please post your madvr settings & catalyst driver version you are using.
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Old 4th January 2012, 07:44   #11775  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
What decoder are you using? I've only ever seen DVDs played back as 29.97 or 25fps. Most films that are "29.97" are 23.98 with repeated frames (3:2) but you need something to perform IVTC to actually drop the repeated frames and play correctly.
Soft-Telecine is somewhat present as well, which would show up as 23.976.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
PAL discs are unplayable at 24Hz using madVR's deinterlacer without it, at least with Nvidia cards.
What.
PAL is usually speed up from 24p, its not telecined (only very rarely, and its questionable if madVR would manage to find a 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 cadence).
IVTC will not help you to play these files/discs at 24p, only ReClock would.

In general however, PAL also uses Telecine, specifically to convert 25p progressive to 50i, a 2:2 cadence. IMHO, thats however of little importance for playback as a deinterlaced 50p stream also looks just fine.
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Old 4th January 2012, 08:04   #11776  |  Link
whitestar999
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@nevcairiel,i have an asus laptop with optimus & GT540M.it came with driver 268.56.the nvidia control panel only has 2 settings under video--video color & image.in video color settings color,gamma & advanced(limited & full dynamic range)are all set to video player settings & only way i can select between dynamic & full range is if i select color adjustment with nvidia setting instead of video player.in madvr i use 0-255 when watching on laptop screen & 16-235 when watching on LG HD TV connected through hdmi.is this correct or should i install graphics driver from nvidia.
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Old 4th January 2012, 08:15   #11777  |  Link
madshi
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@ikarad, please don't quote old posts of yourself. I always reply to every post, when I find the time for that. I'm not in that mode right now. Just trying to push IVTC tests atm.

@JarrettH, DVDs are often not reliable in their encoding. Sometimes they're encoded as 23.976 with telecine flags, sometimes they're encoded as an 29.940 interlaced stream, but rarely for the whole runtime of the movie. They often switch between soft- and hard-telecine. For that you need IVTC with decimation, if you want to play at 24Hz.

@6233638, it's supposed to work with any film content, including PAL and Anime. Anime content very often switches cadences from one scene to the next, or even from one movement section to another. E.g. camera pans are often 3:2, but if the camera doesn't move, you often have 5:5 or 8:7 or other cadences. It is not a sign of something going wrong if madVR switches cadences all the time, with Anime content. That said, most PAL Anime content is field blended and can't be IVTCed properly. Please only test with NTSC Anime content for now. As many samples as possible for problematic PAL non-Anime movie discs would be *much* appreciated.

@dukey, the term "IVTC" is usually used if you do cadence detection on film sources and then weave the correct fields together, instead of using some kind of video mode deinterlacing algorithm. And that is exactly what madVR does, for NTSC sources *and* for PAL and Anime sources, too. Of course for PAL sources madVR doesn't decimate, but it just does cadence detection, bad edit detection and weaving.

@nevcairiel, do you have a 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 sample? I'm pretty sure that the madVR algorithm would be potentially able to identify such a cadence, too. It just doesn't look for cadences that long atm.
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Old 4th January 2012, 08:28   #11778  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
@nevcairiel, do you have a 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 sample? I'm pretty sure that the madVR algorithm would be potentially able to identify such a cadence, too. It just doesn't look for cadences that long atm.
According to some sources i found its been getting some more attention as of late as apparently the mastering people noticed that speed up is less then optimal. Sadly, no-one names some DVDs that are mastered like that.

I can dig a bit, but sadly its not as simple as looking at the mediainfo of such a disc.
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Old 4th January 2012, 08:42   #11779  |  Link
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madshi, I can't get IVTC to work when I disable deinterlacing in madVR's settings either. With deinterlacing on, and manually turning on IVTC everything seems fine but MPC-HC reports a framerate of ~29.97. Using DScaler mod it'll report the correct FPS at ~23.976. Is there a reason why deinterlacing must be on for IVTC to work?
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Old 4th January 2012, 09:05   #11780  |  Link
madshi
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@nevcairiel, I'll just add support for such long cadences "blindly", then maybe a madVR user will find and provide a sample.

@FlashGordon, interlaced content handling is a very complex thing. There is telecined movie content, native video content, anime content and mixed content. Ideally, a deinterlacer should automatically detect the content type and apply the correct algorithm (either "IVTC" or "video mode deinterlacing"), and that even per pixel. There needs to be a term which describes the "interlaced -> progressive" conversion for all types of material, and madVR will be using the term "deinterlacing" for that. So basically "IVTC" is a sub-category of "deinterlacing". And "video mode deinterlacing" is also a sub-category of "deinterlacing". This means that first of all you need to tell madVR that a conversion from interlaced -> progressive is needed. Then in the next step someone (either madVR or you) needs to decide which algorithm to use for that (either "IVTC" or "video mode deinterlacing"). Consequently you first need to enable "deinterlacing". That just means you want madVR to convert interlaced material (film or video) into progressive material. In the future, hopefully madVR will be able to automatically make all these decisions on its own. For now you need to help by manually choosing what you want/need.
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