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Old 13th May 2010, 21:20   #2641  |  Link
madshi
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@pirlouy, I don't really want to write a full subtitle renderer. I just want to offer whatever is needed for MPC HC's internal subtitle renderer to work together with madVR. Currently that doesn't seem to work. Also, the MPC HC's OSD doesn't seem to work with madVR, either. I guess that the MPC HC OSD uses the same renderer input pin as the internal subtitle renderer, but I'm guessing here...
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Old 13th May 2010, 23:38   #2642  |  Link
bozydar
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If you think about it, it should be considered a display "bug", if it converts 4:4:4 input to 4:2:2. After all, if a computer is connected to the display, the computer sends 4:4:4. If an XBox or PS3 is connected, they also usually send 4:4:4, too. So basically a display which internally downconverts all input data to 4:2:2 should be considered faulty, cause it definitely loses quality for computer and game input content.
Well in reality you lose almost nothing. On Xbox and PS3 almost all “high end graphics” games render at 720p or even lower resolution and upconvert graphics to output resolution. This has much greater impact on quality than 4:2:2 processing. Even if some games use FULL-HD resolution they do not render enough information to show difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 (low resolution textures, anti-aliased edges, even procedural texturing cannot run at full res, because of the aliasing).

Only PC-users using they TVs as main monitors will see difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 and only in really bad cases (like red text on black background). And they are less than 0.1% of the market...
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Old 14th May 2010, 01:33   #2643  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I just want to offer whatever is needed for MPC HC's internal subtitle renderer to work together with madVR. Currently that doesn't seem to work. Also, the MPC HC's OSD doesn't seem to work with madVR, either. I guess that the MPC HC OSD uses the same renderer input pin as the internal subtitle renderer, but I'm guessing here...
same goes for KMP's OSD...Haali always seems to idle in the MPC-HC irc channel, maybe he could give you some hints? it's kinda weird that nothing on the MS dev. sites give info about this?!

KMP is able to use a plain D3D surface as VR, and subs do work...I guess its coder got the implementations infos from somewhere. Haali took part in VRM9's development, but kyh sure as hell didn't.
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Old 14th May 2010, 08:03   #2644  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by bozydar View Post
Well in reality you lose almost nothing. On Xbox and PS3 almost all “high end graphics” games render at 720p or even lower resolution and upconvert graphics to output resolution. This has much greater impact on quality than 4:2:2 processing. Even if some games use FULL-HD resolution they do not render enough information to show difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 (low resolution textures, anti-aliased edges, even procedural texturing cannot run at full res, because of the aliasing).
There will surely be no big loss in the moving parts of the image. However, games often have static areas (score etc) with colored sharp edges, and there 4:4:4 vs. 4:2:2 should make a difference.

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Originally Posted by bozydar View Post
Only PC-users using they TVs as main monitors will see difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 and only in really bad cases (like red text on black background).
I think you are underestimating the impact of downscaling chroma. Sure, in photos, video etc the difference is very small. But in computer type graphics (colored lines with 1 pixel width) chroma subsampling can have a noticeable blur effect. E.g. if I just look at my browser right now, the forum URL links at the top of the page are light brown on light grey with a 1 pixel wide font. I'm quite sure that these links would look blurred with 4:2:2, because the brown color would leak into the grey background.

Edit: I've just checked. See here:

http://www.beststuff.com/audiovideo/...ideo-home.html
Quote:
True to its professional heritage, Realta offers complete input to output 4:4:4 color processing and a full 10-bit or better internal data path
http://www.digitalconnection.com/pro...eo/vps3300.asp
Quote:
True 10bit 4:4:4 broadcast grade processing delivering the worlds most advanced and flexible processor.
So both Gennum VXP and Realta are doing full 4:4:4 processing.

Last edited by madshi; 14th May 2010 at 08:06.
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Old 14th May 2010, 08:50   #2645  |  Link
cyberbeing
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madshi, I've sent you a PM.

For anybody having issues with black screen output (not crashes, just black screens) when using madVR with anamorphic video with subtitles, update your VSFilter to the one from the standalone filters of the MPC-HC stable branch http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpc-hc/files/ OR svn http://www.xvidvideo.ru/media-player...-svn-1881.html.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:13   #2646  |  Link
sepheas
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hey madshi, How do you plan now the updates of madvr ? I mean the frequencies.

thx from france
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Old 14th May 2010, 16:47   #2647  |  Link
Razoola
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madshi, am i correct in thinking that nvidia gfx cards that support 10bit displays only do so in DX10 and not DX9? I have read this somewhere but can't remember where. If it is true whould you consider using DX10?
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Old 14th May 2010, 17:10   #2648  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by sepheas View Post
hey madshi, How do you plan now the updates of madvr ? I mean the frequencies.
v0.12 was released almost 7 months after v0.11. I intend to keep the time difference between future releases smaller...

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Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
am i correct in thinking that nvidia gfx cards that support 10bit displays only do so in DX10 and not DX9?
No. AFAIK DX9 can do that, too. But exclusive mode is needed in any case.
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Old 14th May 2010, 17:41   #2649  |  Link
cyberlolo
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You do have a point there. But let's wait on the result of that AVSForum thread. There seems to be no clear decision yet about whether there actually is any useful WTW content in current consumer media or not.
@madshi: It seems that the final conclussion is to set peak white at 240-245 so you can have the best of both worlds. But as I told you some days ago, actually that's not possible with madVR, so I think it would be interesting if you could add a new "Levels" option (or modify the "PC Levels" one) to achieve that. It would be great if it could allow us to set the level for top peak white, so we could get the best of our displays without losing any picture information.

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Originally Posted by yesgrey View Post
About cr3dlut, there should be news within this week...
@yesgrey: Any news of cr3dlut?
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Old 14th May 2010, 21:52   #2650  |  Link
Razoola
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No. AFAIK DX9 can do that, too. But exclusive mode is needed in any case.
Are you certin of this? I could never get 10bit RGB with MPC-HC and EV in exclusive mode. DX9 always gave error disply format not supported (or something on those lines) even though I had a 10bit capable display and gfx card. This is how I first heard 10bit was only possible under DX10 with nvidia drivers.
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Old 14th May 2010, 23:14   #2651  |  Link
naomatrix
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Hi all, thanks madshi for a great render.
One question, maybe in future release use EDID(Extended display identification data) from tv and monitor in 3dlut ?
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Old 15th May 2010, 01:07   #2652  |  Link
mark0077
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Madshi. With 0.12 I still get the macrovision errors with DvDs stored on hdd. Is this fixable do you think?
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Old 15th May 2010, 01:19   #2653  |  Link
fps
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I dunno, but also what resolution source and screen?

My 9600M GT can do the above settings (doubling the resolution of 1280x720 video) in 21ms (say avg frame time is ~42ms).

The 210 is below the 9600M GT and the 220 is just above.
How do I get this information for my card?
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Old 15th May 2010, 03:40   #2654  |  Link
namaiki
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Press Ctrl+J with MadVR in foreground.
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Old 15th May 2010, 14:49   #2655  |  Link
fps
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Press Ctrl+J with MadVR in foreground.
Thank you, I didn't get that this was just introduced with 0.12 .
So I guess theoretically a card should be fast enough as long the rendering time is a bit below the average frame time, or is some extra "time reserve" necessary?
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Old 15th May 2010, 15:54   #2656  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
@madshi: It seems that the final conclussion is to set peak white at 240-245 so you can have the best of both worlds.
I'm not so convinced about that yet. It seems that for Blu-Ray there is little reason for using any more than 235, but for broadcasts the situation appears to be different. I think for a HTPC probably DVD/Blu-Ray playback is more important than broadcast playback, so I think the default "PC levels" logic of capping WTW at 235 is not such a bad choice.

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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
But as I told you some days ago, actually that's not possible with madVR
And as I told you days ago, there will be contrast/brightness controls sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
I think it would be interesting if you could add a new "Levels" option (or modify the "PC Levels" one) to achieve that. It would be great if it could allow us to set the level for top peak white, so we could get the best of our displays without losing any picture information.
Maybe I'll do that, I'm not sure yet. But this definitely will not come before I redesign the settings dialog (which is on my to do list, but not for the next 1-2 versions).

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Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
Are you certin of this? I could never get 10bit RGB with MPC-HC and EV in exclusive mode. DX9 always gave error disply format not supported (or something on those lines) even though I had a 10bit capable display and gfx card. This is how I first heard 10bit was only possible under DX10 with nvidia drivers.
Well, I was talking strictly about what DirectX itself supports. It's possible that NVidia drivers have an "artificial" limitations to not support 10bit mode in DX9.

At this point in time I do not plan to add a DX10 rendering mode, because I don't see any real benefits over DX9 for my needs. But that's just my current point of view, which can potentially change.

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Originally Posted by naomatrix View Post
One question, maybe in future release use EDID(Extended display identification data) from tv and monitor in 3dlut ?
For which exact purpose?

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Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
Madshi. With 0.12 I still get the macrovision errors with DvDs stored on hdd. Is this fixable do you think?
I have not given up hope yet. My main problem is to reproduce it. It doesn't occur on my XP machine. And my win7 x64 machine doesn't have a DVD drive.

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Originally Posted by fps View Post
So I guess theoretically a card should be fast enough as long the rendering time is a bit below the average frame time, or is some extra "time reserve" necessary?
For the special (not-yet implemented) Aero and fullscreen exclusive mode rendering paths, it's probably good enough if the rendering times are a "little bit" under the average frame time. For non-Aero windowed mode I'd recommend to stay more than just a "little bit" under the average frame time, or else smooth playback may not always work reliably. Can't give you any hard numbers, though...
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Old 15th May 2010, 17:11   #2657  |  Link
mark0077
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madshi, you can reproduce macrovision with this TEST DVD. I used it recently to compare quality between ffdshow yv12 - rgb conversions with madVR but get macrovision failure.

http://merifon.altervista.org/TestDVD.html

Just download and start using the video_ts.ifo file. You'll see "DVD: Macrovision Fail" at the bottom of the madvr window.
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Old 15th May 2010, 18:13   #2658  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I think for a HTPC probably DVD/Blu-Ray playback is more important than broadcast playback, so I think the default "PC levels" logic of capping WTW at 235 is not such a bad choice.
I disagree. There's a lot of people that uses HTPC mainly for watching mkv's, and in case of TV Shows, they're encoded from broadcasts, aren't they?

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
And as I told you days ago, there will be contrast/brightness controls sooner or later.
Ok madshi, it wasn't my intention to put you in a hurry. Please bear in mind that my english is not very good, and maybe I use some expressions (like "told you days ago") that can sound aggresive or something, but that's not my intention.
To keep things clear, I appreciate your great work, and I only write here my opinions and wishes just in case they can help you in some way to improve your renderer.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Maybe I'll do that, I'm not sure yet. But this definitely will not come before I redesign the settings dialog (which is on my to do list, but not for the next 1-2 versions).
Ok, I still think it would be a very useful feature. So I'll keep waiting for it, if you finally decide to add it.

Thanks for your answers.

Last edited by Guest; 16th May 2010 at 00:21. Reason: rule 6
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Old 15th May 2010, 20:47   #2659  |  Link
TinTime
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Originally Posted by Grmpf View Post
Btw. here a picture with madVR stats from my system - tearing at 23.976hz. Its *always* in the same postion (i marked it red, because i can not screenshot the tearing), no matter if i restart the player, system, use pause, or whatsoever - madVR tears at this position for me and no where else. My system is a Q9550 + ATi 4770, on WinXP SP3, output on a JVC DLA-HD100 (RS2 named in the US) - btw my timings (with powerstrip) are very very tight - i get not a single Repeat/Drop (apart from the starting ones) while bitstreaming AC3/dts in 13+ hours constant playing. With other renderers i can adjust the vsync with reclock to not tear, with madVR its not possible, and after reading your conversation with jong i understand why reclock is not working the way i am used to be.

I cross my fingers that the exclusive mode will fix it, it is a it strange that the tearing is always at the same position or ?

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Originally Posted by TinTime View Post
I get exactly the same tearing as you at 23/24Hz with 0.12. I'm also on XP SP3 with an Nvidia 8600GT.

This seems to have been present for me since 0.10. Versions 0.9 and earlier were ok. If there was tearing then it was when play was started and a quick pause / play would fix it, similar to when I use VMR-9.

Since this post I've moved on to Windows 7 from XP - same hardware, new OS. I no longer get tearing at 24Hz.

Of course I've now got a whole new series of problems to deal with (Nvidia custom resolutions seem to be completely broken, whereas they worked fine on XP) but madVR 0.12 is working great
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Old 15th May 2010, 23:45   #2660  |  Link
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@TinTime - is that with Aero enabled? If so, disable Aero and you'll more than likely see the tearing again.
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