Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > MPEG-4 AVC / H.264

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 25th March 2009, 15:19   #1  |  Link
BetaBoy
CoreCodec Founder
 
BetaBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,421
G'bye 3rd Party ASP/AVC Filters in WMP/MCE on Win7?

http://forum.corecodec.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=9675

As Damien one of the FFMPEG Devs has found out... it looks like MS has blocked third party filters for MP4 and AVC when using WMP or MCE on Windows 7.

Can someone please confirm this is the case?
__________________
Dan "BetaBoy" Marlin
Ubiquitous Multimedia Technologies and Developer Tools

http://corecodec.com
BetaBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 15:41   #2  |  Link
Sharktooth
Mr. Sandman
 
Sharktooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Haddonfield, IL
Posts: 11,768
w00t? they still didnt get it? they CAN'T legally do that unless they remove WMP from the Windows installation.
the EU commision will have their work to do it this is true...

Last edited by Sharktooth; 25th March 2009 at 15:46.
Sharktooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 16:07   #3  |  Link
LoRd_MuldeR
Software Developer
 
LoRd_MuldeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Last House on Slunk Street
Posts: 12,934
Quote:
As Damien one of the FFMPEG Devs has found out... it looks like MS has blocked third party filters for MP4 and AVC when using WMP or MCE on Windows 7.
As far as I understood, M$ is switching from DirectShow to MediaFoundation. Their new MP4 and AVC filters for Windows 7 are written as MediaFoundation filters, not DirectShow filters.

Hence WMP and MCE will look for a suitable MediaFoundation filter first, before they fall back to DirectShow.

Consequently any DirectShow filter (including third-party ones) will be "blocked" (if you want to call it like that) by Microsoft's MediaFoundation filters. And AFAIK this cannot be overwritten.

One would have to provide a MediaFoundation filter, I guess. There also was some discussion about that in the ffdshow thread recently...

Quote:
w00t? they still didnt get it? they CAN'T legally do that unless they remove WMP from the Windows installation.
In Windows 7 you can uninstall WMP/MCE as well as IExplore. It was speculated that this is because they want to avoid trouble with the EU commision...
__________________
There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.



Last edited by LoRd_MuldeR; 25th March 2009 at 16:15.
LoRd_MuldeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 16:15   #4  |  Link
BetaBoy
CoreCodec Founder
 
BetaBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharktooth View Post
w00t? they still didnt get it? they CAN'T legally do that unless they remove WMP from the Windows installation.
the EU commision will have their work to do it this is true...
Yeah... my JAW is still on the ground here if this is true. Also.... how would this effect Silverlight's newly added H.264 support on Windows 7? ie; is Silverlight using an integrated AVC decoder or the media foundation filter?
__________________
Dan "BetaBoy" Marlin
Ubiquitous Multimedia Technologies and Developer Tools

http://corecodec.com
BetaBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 16:15   #5  |  Link
albain
Media Control author
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Paris
Posts: 1,014
Hi there,

if you want more details :

For any codecs with no equivalent in Media Foundation :
=> Our directShow codec (FFDShow) is loaded correctly and runs into the graph

For any codecs with equivalent in Media Foundation (mpeg4/h264)
=> Our directshow codec is loaded, the input pin is connected (the media type is accepted by FFDShow), then an output pin is looked after, found, and... the filter is unloaded. No querying about the output media type, nothing. It is replaced then by MS DMO decoder

Tests done on Windows 7 build 7057 32 bits with WMP 12 and Media Center

Second step : I have built a dummy Media Foundation filter that declares all H264/MPEG4 media types.
=> It is not even consulted

Last step : I have built a dummy Media Foundation filter that is not a decoder but a transform filter (this is a different category).
=> It is not consulted either.

Reason : Microsoft maintains a list of preferred codecs in the following registry key : HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\MediaFoundation\Transforms\Preferred
This key cannot be modified even in admin mode (this is a protected area, like system files).
So this list cannot be modified.

Conclusion : decoder is not overridable, even if one develops a Media Foundation filter

Two leads :
1/ Develop a DSP filter for Windows Media Player. This will only do postprocessing, no decoding.
2/ Make the source filter (Haali) autoload with a configurable option FFDShow or any other compatible filter.
Maybe Haali could reproduce the DirectShow filters enumeration according to their merit and take the highest one which is compatible with the media type.
This will work for MKV/MP4 containers, not AVI, unless the AVI container is overridable in Media Center/Media Player.
albain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 16:18   #6  |  Link
LoRd_MuldeR
Software Developer
 
LoRd_MuldeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Last House on Slunk Street
Posts: 12,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by albain View Post
Reason : Microsoft maintains a list of preferred codecs in the following registry key : HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\MediaFoundation\Transforms\Preferred
This key cannot be modified even in admin mode (this is a protected area, like system files).
So this list cannot be modified.

Conclusion : decoder is not overridable, even if one develops a Media Foundation filter
This indeed is worse than I had expected

So there are even more reasons to NOT use WMP/MCE, but use MediaPlayerClassic and friends...
__________________
There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.


LoRd_MuldeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 16:44   #7  |  Link
clsid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,837
There is also a little bit of good news. Microsoft's H.264 decoder has DXVA support and it also works in combination with third party players.

Not being able to use third party filters is a pity. But what is even worse is the lack of subtitle support. VSFilter simply won't get loaded for external subtitle files. For embedded subtitles Haali's workaround still works, but only for Matroska files.
clsid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 19:56   #8  |  Link
Snowknight26
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by albain View Post
For any codecs with equivalent in Media Foundation (mpeg4/h264)
=> Our directshow codec is loaded, the input pin is connected (the media type is accepted by FFDShow), then an output pin is looked after, found, and... the filter is unloaded. No querying about the output media type, nothing. It is replaced then by MS DMO decoder
Unregister the dll associated with the DMO filter?
Snowknight26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 21:05   #9  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,455
something tells me a lot ppl(including me) will stick to XP SP3 until the end of days

at least, if they would let us disable Cleartype...I hate blurry fonts
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 21:14   #10  |  Link
clsid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,837
Quote:
Reason : Microsoft maintains a list of preferred codecs in the following registry key : HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\MediaFoundation\Transforms\Preferred
This key cannot be modified even in admin mode (this is a protected area, like system files).
So this list cannot be modified.
You can edit this key after adjusting its security permissions. First change the ownership from TrustedInstaller to Admin group. You can do that in the Advanced settings. Then you can give Admin group full access.
clsid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2009, 22:42   #11  |  Link
Brazil2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by albain View Post
Reason : Microsoft maintains a list of preferred codecs in the following registry key : HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\MediaFoundation\Transforms\Preferred
This key cannot be modified even in admin mode (this is a protected area, like system files).
So this list cannot be modified.
How lame is that.
When will they understand that it is MY computer and not Microsoft's computer so I decide what to use on MY computer. No wonder why more and more people are switching to Linux.

Not to mention, as said already, the possible legal issues with this behaviour forcing the use some specific codecs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
something tells me a lot ppl(including me) will stick to XP SP3 until the end of days

at least, if they would let us disable Cleartype...I hate blurry fonts
Yep, same here, still on XP and will be for a long time I think.
The Clearype thingy is just another example of this madness thinking that the OS knows better than us what to do and what to use.

Anyway, I'm already on a XP-Debian dual boot for months. Enough is enough.
Brazil2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 00:22   #12  |  Link
Dark Eiri
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 327
I posted some time ago about this. Since 7 Beta I can't use any external codecs or filters on WMP and MediaCenter.
The only way to use CoreAVC was to use MKV container, since WMP didn't have internal splitters for it, it went for Haali and then CoreAVC. MP4 and everything else was internal decoders only. New builds seem to already have internal MKV splitters, so... g'bye for good.
Dark Eiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 01:56   #13  |  Link
squid_80
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne, AU
Posts: 1,963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Eiri View Post
New builds seem to already have internal MKV splitters, so... g'bye for good.
Wait, are you saying Windows 7 has built-in support for Matroska?
squid_80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 02:32   #14  |  Link
RunningSkittle
Skittle
 
RunningSkittle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 539
i can confirm that build 7000 and 7048 do not have native matroska support.
RunningSkittle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 03:18   #15  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by clsid View Post
You can edit this key after adjusting its security permissions. First change the ownership from TrustedInstaller to Admin group. You can do that in the Advanced settings. Then you can give Admin group full access.
So virtually that fixes the problem now i wonder if that is Microsofts preferred (MSDN) way of 3rd Parties to do it or more like Register your filter @ Microsoft for usage in our Products first
They not dumb they for sure didn't oversaw this problem so it suggests that they want you to call them for being able to use your filter in their framework maybe it's something that has to do with their new Security in Mind credo
It also would fit to the 64 bit Kernel Protection Strategy would make 32 Bit also a little more secure, though of course the whole Open Source way is threatened by this, and im not sure if taking Security as a Shield to force these Practices further and further into their OS will hide the real intention (JailDows) i mean the normal user can't really see what's going on but we power user feel more and more restrictions and me being a over 10 year Windows user slowly get's tired of it.
Every year it's like we lose more and more control of our own machines and that's a steady ongoing thing and is being forced to the next level "Hardware" slowly and Software gets more and more prepared for it (.NET) and that all in the name of Security ? and in the same time Politics try to decimate knowledge about Security related stuff, it feels scary somehow really scary.
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 26th March 2009 at 03:37.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 03:29   #16  |  Link
squid_80
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne, AU
Posts: 1,963
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunningSkittle View Post
i can confirm that build 7000 and 7048 do not have native matroska support.
That's what I figured. Let's save the "Windows supports MKV!" statements for April Fools.
squid_80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 08:19   #17  |  Link
albain
Media Control author
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Paris
Posts: 1,014
Well with build 7057 Haali's splitter is used for MKV but the H264 decoder that is selected is the MS DMO one.

This is the reason why I asked Haali to implement an option to force a given decoder or even better to reproduce the decoder selection like old time : enumerating codecs according to the media type and their merit.
albain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 10:24   #18  |  Link
albain
Media Control author
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Paris
Posts: 1,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by clsid View Post
You can edit this key after adjusting its security permissions. First change the ownership from TrustedInstaller to Admin group. You can do that in the Advanced settings. Then you can give Admin group full access.
You're right, but this is a hack and it won't work in an installer
albain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 13:56   #19  |  Link
djloewen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by albain View Post
Well with build 7057 Haali's splitter is used for MKV but the H264 decoder that is selected is the MS DMO one.
Would this allow a person to add .mkv files to the Windows Media Player library, and organize them using metadata? 'Cause you sure can't on Vista...
djloewen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 17:47   #20  |  Link
clsid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by albain View Post
You're right, but this is a hack and it won't work in an installer
With SetACL it is possible to take ownership of files and registry keys
clsid is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.