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Old 30th August 2008, 06:38   #1  |  Link
ettin
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Lossless backup guide?

Is there a guide on doing a lossless backup of DVD's? ive searched and cant find anything. I ripped a dvd using dvd decrypter, of which the VOB's played fine, but when i tried to convert it to a lossless format (im guessing h264?) using handbrake, it gave me "no titles found" and its faq says that means my files are still encrypted. I dont really know what to do at this point, i just wanted to make a lossless backup of just the movie into a single playable file, no special stuff like subs/languages/features.
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Old 30th August 2008, 06:40   #2  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Originally Posted by ettin View Post
Is there a guide on doing a lossless backup of DVD's? ive searched and cant find anything. I ripped a dvd using dvd decrypter, of which the VOB's played fine, but when i tried to convert it to a lossless format (im guessing h264?) using handbrake, it gave me "no titles found" and its faq says that means my files are still encrypted. I dont really know what to do at this point, i just wanted to make a lossless backup of just the movie into a single playable file, no special stuff like subs/languages/features.
Converting a lossy format to a lossless one will only make it larger (much, much, much larger). The easiest way to "losslessly" backup a DVD is to just not recompress it.
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Old 30th August 2008, 06:56   #3  |  Link
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Maybe he means transparent backup o_o

As for your problem I really don't know :X Ask in the Handbrake forums?
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Old 30th August 2008, 07:36   #4  |  Link
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The only way I know of to make a lossless copy of a DVD is to clone it by making an image (preserving the original layer brake) and burning it. DVD -> h.264/xvid/divx is a lossy process. Also, DVD decrypter is no longer developed and cannot handle newer protection schemes. Use DVDFab or AnyDVD to rip instead.

If you want to make a lossless backup of a DVD, make an image of it using imgburn and mount it with daemon tools or VirtualCloneDrive.
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Old 30th August 2008, 07:39   #5  |  Link
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But he wants a single playable file. Depending on what he wants, he should join them and re-encode them or join them and throw it in a MKV or something.
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Old 30th August 2008, 07:43   #6  |  Link
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@ettin
I re-read your question again. It sounds like your problem with handbrake is related to DVD Decrypter. Trying using DVDFab to re-rip the movie again and then use handbrake to compress it.
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Old 2nd September 2008, 19:21   #7  |  Link
ettin
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Ok, i meant lossless as in there is no quality loss from the VOB files into a single container format, and maybe if possible with some reduction in filesize.

I was looking at this http://compression.ru/video/codec_co...s_2007_en.html and it says that FFV1 codec is the best lossless compression format. Apparently its included in FFDshow, but im looking at it and i dont see how im supposed to encode my VOB's, or anything for that matter, through it. Is there a guide somewhere for this?
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Old 2nd September 2008, 19:22   #8  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ettin View Post
Ok, i meant lossless as in there is no quality loss from the VOB files into a single container format, and maybe if possible with some reduction in filesize.

I was looking at this http://compression.ru/video/codec_co...s_2007_en.html and it says that FFV1 codec is the best lossless compression format. Apparently its included in FFDshow, but im looking at it and i dont see how im supposed to encode my VOB's, or anything for that matter, through it. Is there a guide somewhere for this?
As I said before, re-encoding from a lossy to lossless format will make the file much larger.
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Old 2nd September 2008, 19:27   #9  |  Link
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So VOB is pretty much the pinnacle of quality at this point? Are there any LOSSY codecs that wont form the ugly blocking typical with compressed video?
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Old 2nd September 2008, 19:29   #10  |  Link
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So VOB is pretty much the pinnacle of quality at this point? Are there any LOSSY codecs that wont form the ugly blocking typical with compressed video?
The VOBs you have already compressed with MPEG-2, albeit at a high bitrate. "Ugly blocking" is a common feature of encodes at way too low a bitrate.

MPEG-2 isn't a very efficient format, so if you'll tolerate a small amount of quality loss, you can re-encode to (say) H.264 and save a lot of space.
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Old 2nd September 2008, 23:34   #11  |  Link
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well, lets see, went ahead and took your advice and encoded my VOB through super to mp4 using x264. After 4 hours of encoding, my 6gb 80 minute file is still being encoded, and its now at 7gb.

Wow, thats one hell of a compression scheme you got there.

Anyone know of a decent lossy codec that actually compresses? Or i would be happy to leave the VOB as is if i could just get it into a MKV container, but im only seeing a MKV to VOB program, theres nothing about converting VOB to MKV, and virtualdub doesnt accept VOB so thats out of the question.

Last edited by ettin; 2nd September 2008 at 23:44.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 00:07   #12  |  Link
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Use PGC Demux to demux the video, audio, and subtitles; then use MKVToolnix to remux into an mkv. There will be no loss in quality. You can also use VirtualDub, but you will need avisynth and dgindex so its kinda tricky, and it wont be lossless.

Last edited by linyx; 3rd September 2008 at 00:10.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 00:15   #13  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Originally Posted by ettin View Post
well, lets see, went ahead and took your advice and encoded my VOB through super to mp4 using x264. After 4 hours of encoding, my 6gb 80 minute file is still being encoded, and its now at 7gb.

Wow, thats one hell of a compression scheme you got there.
So you use some random GUI that isn't supported here, pick a really high bitrate, and wonder why the filesize gets larger?

Filesize has nothing to do with the "compression scheme"--you pick the filesize by picking the associated bitrate.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 04:31   #14  |  Link
ettin
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So you use some random GUI that isn't supported here, pick a really high bitrate, and wonder why the filesize gets larger?
I picked a bitrate of 8000, which is probably far below that of the VOB, now why would a lower bitrate produce a larger file, especially given its a lossy compression? Even so, it wasnt even halfway done after 4 hours. Just for kicks i picked a bitrate of 64, and it still went as slow. I could encode the same movie (from any format) into mpeg2 using CCE in 20 minutes. Hell, maybe i accidently ticked the "work really ineffeciently" option somewhere, but ive read the x264 guides on here and i dont see why it performed the way it did.

Anyways, every guide ive ever read on bitrate vs quality states that 8000 is pretty much the DVD quality standard before it starts to take a dive, so if your telling me that a bitrate of 8000 is going to produce a larger file than the source, then i guess technology still has a long way to go before i can turn this VOB into something nice yet manageable.

Still, i find it hard to believe that no one has developed a quality lossy codec yet, especially considering the amount of 720p mkv rips floating about the net nowadays.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 04:36   #15  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ettin View Post
I picked a bitrate of 8000, which is probably far below that of the VOB
No it isn't, DVDs have a max bitrate of 9 megabits (roughly), and generally use about 6-7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ettin View Post
now why would a lower bitrate produce a larger file, especially given its a lossy compression? Even so, it wasnt even halfway done after 4 hours. Just for kicks i picked a bitrate of 64, and it still went as slow. I could encode the same movie (from any format) into mpeg2 using CCE in 20 minutes. Hell, maybe i accidently ticked the "work really ineffeciently" option somewhere, but ive read the x264 guides on here and i dont see why it performed the way it did.
You're using a GUI that isn't supported on this board, and complaining about it to us. Why? Complain to the people who made it, not those of us who actually develop the encoders you're using improperly.
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Still, i find it hard to believe that no one has developed a quality lossy codec yet, especially considering the amount of 720p mkv rips floating about the net nowadays.
All those 720p rips use x264, without exception. x264 is the quality lossy codec.

Your attitude is not going to get you anywhere on this forum except perhaps struck. Drop it if you want people to help you. There are loads of guides on this site about how to do what you're looking to do; don't ignore them.

We do want to help--the worst thing you can do for yourself is reject the assistance you're offered

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 3rd September 2008 at 04:42.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 04:49   #16  |  Link
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I see you defended its quality vehemently, so ill take your word for it, but i notice you didnt correct my ascertains about its speed. Is that to mean im correct? It takes 8 hours to encode a one hour movie, where CCE could do the same in 20 minutes (granted their encoding to two different formats)? Is that an issue with your encoder, or with H264 in general?

I apologize for what came off as an attitude, its just frustrating to spend hours waiting on something just to have it fail and all you get is an "you should have known that already" attitude from others who are supposed to be helping. This is a newbie forum after all, if your going to help people, you have to assume they know nothing.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 04:54   #17  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ettin View Post
I see you defended its quality vehemently, so ill take your word for it, but i notice you didnt correct my ascertains about its speed. Is that to mean im correct? It takes 8 hours to encode a one hour movie, where CCE could do the same in 20 minutes (granted their encoding to two different formats)? Is that an issue with your encoder, or with H264 in general?
x264 is extremely scalable in this regard. Its fastest speed settings can get roughly 150fps encoding on a DVD on a single Core 2 3.2Ghz core (multiply times number of threads... you get the idea!). Its slowest settings might be under 5fps per core on the same system!

Obviously, there's a balance to be struck in the middle. Try out Ripbot264, AutoMKV, or MeGUI. They all have options for profiles with reasonable speeds.

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 3rd September 2008 at 04:58.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 07:20   #18  |  Link
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This might be a shot in the dark, but why don't you try the demo version of CloneDVDmobile. The latest beta uses ffmpeg and compresses to x264/divx/xvid... and supports the MP4 and AVI containers.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 22:29   #19  |  Link
ettin
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Hm. i might have to. I downloaded AutoMKV, made sure i had all the dependencies, loaded up my VOB (I joined them into one using VOBmerge, which plays fine), set it up according to THE NEWBIE GUIDE http://www.kayakingcoach.com/GUIDE.htm, but with the container as MKV (x264) and the audio as AC3, and set it to encode.

That DOOM9 approved enough? Well, lets see, according to the "convert file" box, ETA is 38 hours, at a speed of .05x realtime. My specs are 3ghz P4, 3gb ram, x1900 radeon, XP pro. Not top of the line but not exactly an apple II either.

Hm, no, 38 hours would be a good thing, that would actually insinuate that somewhere in time this operation would be complete, but i do believe its just stopped working altogether.

now what :/
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Old 3rd September 2008, 22:41   #20  |  Link
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test the procedure with very short input files, 1 minute should be plenty, when you get your xyz method perfected, go with The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, which is 2:51 i belive
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