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Old 23rd April 2008, 02:09   #21  |  Link
Ranguvar
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Massive ownage!

This is gonna be fun to play with. Thanks DS!
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Old 23rd April 2008, 02:20   #22  |  Link
Snowknight26
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Would there be any reason not to use FGO for something like transcoding 300?
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Old 23rd April 2008, 02:29   #23  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Would there be any reason not to use FGO for something like transcoding 300?
Sure, what if you wanted all the grain to be removed?
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Old 23rd April 2008, 02:53   #24  |  Link
[P]ako
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Awesome! It has even the aq patch... well I shouldn't be surprised about the aq patch, now that it is part of x264 cvs.
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Old 23rd April 2008, 04:31   #25  |  Link
Snowknight26
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
Sure, what if you wanted all the grain to be removed?
Is it ready enough to be used for non-development environments?
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Old 23rd April 2008, 04:35   #26  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Is it ready enough to be used for non-development environments?
Probably not, but you can try
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Old 23rd April 2008, 12:38   #27  |  Link
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Hi Dark Shikari,

looks like a very nice patch, but there is one thing which keeps bothering me when talking about H.264 film grain... the standard specifies a SEI film grain message which I have not seen yet in any implementation. Wouldn't there be a much bigger gain in quality if the grain was just removed with a filter, the filtered movie encoded, and the grain added with this SEI message? This would save a lot of noise from being encoded with an enourmous amount of bits... just an idea, as I don't know if there are any decoders which consider this SEI message for it is optional.

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Last edited by Dust Signs; 23rd April 2008 at 12:40. Reason: Corrected some spelling mistakes
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Old 23rd April 2008, 13:20   #28  |  Link
Sagittaire
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Originally Posted by Dust Signs View Post
Hi Dark Shikari,

looks like a very nice patch, but there is one thing which keeps bothering me when talking about H.264 film grain... the standard specifies a SEI film grain message which I have not seen yet in any implementation. Wouldn't there be a much bigger gain in quality if the grain was just removed with a filter, the filtered movie encoded, and the grain added with this SEI message? This would save a lot of noise from being encoded with an enourmous amount of bits... just an idea, as I don't know if there are any decoders which consider this SEI message for it is optional.

Dust Signs
Decoder (hardware and software) must be compatible with FGM. As far I know it's not the case for libavcodec, coreavc ...
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Old 23rd April 2008, 13:47   #29  |  Link
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Hi Dust Signs,

the problem is that there's no way to remove the grain without loosing any details, you can degrain and sharpen afterwards to (re-)amplify the softened details, but you are always altering the picture. If it would be that easy, you could just degrain and apply AddGrain(x.x) during playback to it.

@DS
Thanks for all your work on x264, this patch could be the next big step after AQ.

Regards
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Old 23rd April 2008, 16:08   #30  |  Link
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Subjective wise this works really well especially on B-frames where prestige fails even with b-rdo (b-frames) FGO has no problems to keep the grainy Look & Feel constantly (and very visible) throughout every frame very impressive, indeed it fakes the eye really efficient and can even bring back the grain feeling after resizing

Code:
Prestige    = 15.30 fps Global:45.183 Y:0.9806016
RD Prestige = 10.74 fps Global:45.404 Y:0.9799006
RD FGO 15   = 9.40  fps Global:44.612 Y:0.9758523
RD FGO 100  = 9.40  fps Global:44.153 Y:0.9739887
Speed wise it's also not much slower and for sure you can optimize on other options and still keep the grain but get almost as fast as without RD (not with the full detail preservation then but still with the grain feeling)
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Old 23rd April 2008, 17:34   #31  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust Signs View Post
Hi Dark Shikari,

looks like a very nice patch, but there is one thing which keeps bothering me when talking about H.264 film grain... the standard specifies a SEI film grain message which I have not seen yet in any implementation. Wouldn't there be a much bigger gain in quality if the grain was just removed with a filter, the filtered movie encoded, and the grain added with this SEI message? This would save a lot of noise from being encoded with an enourmous amount of bits... just an idea, as I don't know if there are any decoders which consider this SEI message for it is optional.

Dust Signs
Film Grain Modelling is a great idea but nearly nobody has implemented it (not even JM), so there's very little to go off of. We'd basically be starting from nothing, and we'd need to implement it in libavcodec too.

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Subjective wise this works really well especially on B-frames where prestige fails even with b-rdo (b-frames)
That's partially because I cheated; FGO lowers B-frame quantizers somewhat to ensure they stay grainy
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Old 23rd April 2008, 19:08   #32  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
That's partially because I cheated; FGO lowers B-frame quantizers somewhat to ensure they stay grainy
oh your such a bad boy

i tested your new patch in combination with fft3dgpu > gradfun2db > x264. the results were excellent.
the banding is almost reduced to nothing.

your work is really amazing. this is a real great visual upgrade!
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Old 24th April 2008, 00:08   #33  |  Link
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Ah, the links are working for me now, thanks!

Anyway, this looks like a real breakthrough in encoding. The results I'm getting are fantastic!
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Old 24th April 2008, 05:49   #34  |  Link
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same settings with --fgo 10 turned on and off



OFF


ON


the bitrate used would give me a dvd9 result at 1080p...
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Old 24th April 2008, 05:50   #35  |  Link
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Hello Dark,

I'm curious about the reasoning behind the formula for "noise score". Would you mind to elaborate?

Quote:
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Noise is measured as follows:

If X(i,j) is a pixel in a block, the noise score for that pixel is abs(X(i,j) - X(i+1,j) - X(i,j+1) + X(i+1,j+1)). This is summed up over all pixels in the block.

In other words, NSSD rewards modes which have a similar amount of noise and approximate the source reasonably well. This noise need not be exactly like the source's noise; it merely needs to be good enough.
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Old 24th April 2008, 06:32   #36  |  Link
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Hello Dark,

I'm curious about the reasoning behind the formula for "noise score". Would you mind to elaborate?
1. The noise score itself represents the absolute gradient at each point, summed up; this is a relatively good indicator of noise level.

2. Because it doesn't matter exactly what noise we retain as long as its similar, two similar noise scores are a good thing.
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Old 24th April 2008, 13:23   #37  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ToS_Maverick View Post
oh your such a bad boy

i tested your new patch in combination with fft3dgpu > gradfun2db > x264. the results were excellent.
the banding is almost reduced to nothing.

your work is really amazing. this is a real great visual upgrade!
can you put a screenshoot, I'm curious
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Old 24th April 2008, 13:29   #38  |  Link
Razorholt
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
In incredibly simple terms: it measures only that the amount of noise in a candidate block is the same as it should be, not that its the same noise as in the source.
So, with a non-grainy source the picture shouldn't be degraded when using FGO, correct? Also, how FGO will "play" with non-grainy source + addGrain? I guess I should try...


Thanks,
- Dan
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Old 24th April 2008, 14:02   #39  |  Link
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amazing! thanks!!
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Old 24th April 2008, 16:47   #40  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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So, with a non-grainy source the picture shouldn't be degraded when using FGO, correct?
Oh, it should, but not that badly.
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