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Old 30th October 2007, 10:32   #101  |  Link
linx05
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Originally Posted by bcrabl View Post
Thet went oracle because they don't want open source community to crack anydvd and find the device/proseccing keys. That is the only reason. The AACS LA will just revoce all the keys for software players next december.
Actually they don't mind freeware tools using them but they would not like it if other shareware companies stole it.
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Old 30th October 2007, 11:54   #102  |  Link
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That's not exactly what they said. They said they are going to allow AnyDVD HD to communicate with their server for any new titles that it doesn't have keys for and will discover the key from the information sent to the Slysoft server, and send back a key for that title. The MKBv4 cracking code will not be integrated into AnyDVD HD directly. Each new version will come with an upgrade list of titles that it can decrypt. However, as I said, when a new one is encountered it'll be decrypted for you by the server.
That's a clever way of doing it!

It completely avoids the possibility of revealing their cracking technique.


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Old 30th October 2007, 13:27   #103  |  Link
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That's a clever way of doing it!

It completely avoids the possibility of revealing their cracking technique.


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It is clever, but, it does have drawbacks, too. A lot of people are complaining about having "offline HTPC's" but then, how do they get AnyDVD updates to that machine in the first place? If they're that concerned about putting the machine online to allow it to crack discs "instantly", they can always wait until AnyDVD is updated with a new key database and update the AnyDVD version "offline". So, yes, people are complaining already about this new method, however, given that it's the *ONLY* method so far, well, not too much to complain about IMO.
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Old 30th October 2007, 13:57   #104  |  Link
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"they are going to allow AnyDVD HD to communicate with their server for any new titles that it doesn't have keys for and will discover the key from the information sent to the Slysoft server, and send back a key for that title."

That's a clever way of doing it!
It completely avoids the possibility of revealing their cracking technique.
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I don't think "clever" is quite the right word for it. This type of attack is referred to as an "oracle" and the AACS system was built with the assumption that an oracle would be tried. You could say that AACS is years ahead since a "solution" to the oracle attack was built into the AACS specs long ago.

The "solution" is sequence keys which would (eventually) identify the compromised keys used by the oracle. As others have commented, it's likely that the keys came from a software player and they will all be changed by AACSLA on the next MKB cycle. Sequence keys may never be used.

I suspect that Slysoft sees some advantage in hiding the keys they use from their competitors, and some advantage in keeping secret which software player they have compromised to reduce the incentives to harden it.
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Old 30th October 2007, 17:38   #105  |  Link
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The "solution" is sequence keys which would (eventually) identify the compromised keys used by the oracle. As others have commented, it's likely that the keys came from a software player and they will all be changed by AACSLA on the next MKB cycle. Sequence keys may never be used.

I suspect that Slysoft sees some advantage in hiding the keys they use from their competitors, and some advantage in keeping secret which software player they have compromised to reduce the incentives to harden it.
Well, surely it's not that we are under any illusion that hiding keys by using a key-server would keep AACS from finding out the source of the keys.
That's not really the point. We simply found that there are several advantages to it.
One is: yes, software players have put tremendous effort into hiding their keys lately.
It took me a full 3 weeks to get them, after all, so my hat off

Anyway - while this may encourage people to start hacking into AnyDVD (which is happening all the time anyway for cracking purposes) - AnyDVD does hide it's keys too, but not as efficient as the latest SW players do, I have to admit.
So it would make me feel a little awkward to put all that work into the unwrapping and then see our friend FengTao just copy them from us (which I would do too in his place, I'm not blaming him for that at all).
So instead of adding that amount of hard work to obfuscate keys as well as current SW players do, we decided to not put the keys into danger at all.

Also, this method let's us be right on top of the news, whenever a new encryption comes up, which is the point that has the most sex-appeal to me myself

EDIT: there are some additional advantages to the users as well, like SAK/PS3-users using 1:1 images created from their PS3 will typically not have to wait for an AnyDVD update that can crack their known disc - the online query is much more up to date.
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Last edited by Peer van Heuen; 30th October 2007 at 17:42.
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Old 30th October 2007, 18:10   #106  |  Link
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One is: yes, software players have put tremendous effort into hiding their keys lately.
I have no problem with the oracle/blackbox approach, but I am thinking when you have spend the time to reverse engineer the software players key scrambling, couldn't you just reuse that scrambling routine in AnyDVD?

Keep up the good work! =)
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Old 30th October 2007, 18:28   #107  |  Link
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I have no problem with the oracle/blackbox approach, but I am thinking when you have spend the time to reverse engineer the software players key scrambling, couldn't you just reuse that scrambling routine in AnyDVD?
Nice thought for sure, but those are several layers and even knowing how they work (some are really beautiful, I'd like to add), it takes longer to implement than to break. That is a basic rule of obfuscation - constantly underestimated.
Also, I prefer to not "steal" more than necessary.
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Old 30th October 2007, 18:49   #108  |  Link
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Nice thought for sure, but those are several layers and even knowing how they work (some are really beautiful, I'd like to add), it takes longer to implement than to break. That is a basic rule of obfuscation - constantly underestimated.
Also, I prefer to not "steal" more than necessary.
I don't think you can talk about stealing a number, but that's another discussion =)

But I see you point, and when I think about it, it would mean that AACSLA would know exactly how to unscramble the keys. =(
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Old 30th October 2007, 20:58   #109  |  Link
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software players have put tremendous effort into hiding their keys lately.
It took me a full 3 weeks to get them, after all, so my hat off
And my hat is off to you too as you appear to be the only one who has achieved this feat.

It would have been nice to know what you learned about the obfuscation/hiding and how you learned it - purely as an intellectual interest - but I understand that you probably don't want to tell your competitors, those who wrote the obfuscation/hiding routines and the AACS about your techniques and failures/successes. Perhaps one day, though ...
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Old 30th October 2007, 23:47   #110  |  Link
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Getting ripping them hardware players apart slysoft. Get some more ammo for the future battles.
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Old 31st October 2007, 03:51   #111  |  Link
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Well, hats off to Peer!

Now to BD+.

SlySoft forum users (at least 2 of them) report successful ripping of the BD+ title.

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=9120

SlySoft itself did not say new AnyDVD breaks BD+, they said they are working on this.

But..can it be that BD+ has no clothes?

Just complying with the file structure does it?

Wishful thinking I guess.
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Old 31st October 2007, 04:37   #112  |  Link
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So it would make me feel a little awkward to put all that work into the unwrapping and then see our friend FengTao just copy them from us (which I would do too in his place, I'm not blaming him for that at all).
Peer,

Please keep such comments regarding other members here to yourself or on your own forum. Apart from possibly being libelous (which Doom9 might also be liable for), it is clearly a breach of rule 4.

We do appreciate your participation here, but please be aware of our rules.

TIA.

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Old 31st October 2007, 09:17   #113  |  Link
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Also, this method let's us be right on top of the news, whenever a new encryption comes up, which is the point that has the most sex-appeal to me myself
That's one of the reasons I thought it was particularly clever.

Any new discs that the software can't cope with you learn about immediately!

Congratulations on some brilliant work.


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Old 31st October 2007, 10:32   #114  |  Link
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Well, hats off to Peer!

Now to BD+.

SlySoft forum users (at least 2 of them) report successful ripping of the BD+ title.

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=9120

SlySoft itself did not say new AnyDVD breaks BD+, they said they are working on this.

But..can it be that BD+ has no clothes?

Just complying with the file structure does it?

Wishful thinking I guess.


It is starting to look as if there might be a bug in a software player (as if) that is facilitating by-passing of bd+ somehow. I imagine that exploits of that are a separate matter to progress being made elsewhere.
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Old 31st October 2007, 12:09   #115  |  Link
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Please keep such comments regarding other members here to yourself or on your own forum. Apart from possibly being libelous (which Doom9 might also be liable for), it is clearly a breach of rule 4.

We do appreciate your participation here, but please be aware of our rules.
Done

FengTao is a polite and friendly person. No harm meant.
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Old 31st October 2007, 12:10   #116  |  Link
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It is starting to look as if there might be a bug in a software player (as if) that is facilitating by-passing of bd+ somehow. I imagine that exploits of that are a separate matter to progress being made elsewhere.
I'll have to look into this further - rest assured, AnyDVD HD is not bypassing BD+ yet.
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Old 1st November 2007, 00:53   #117  |  Link
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SlySoft forum users (at least 2 of them) report successful ripping of the BD+ title.

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=9120
That sure is an interesting thread!!

For those who haven't read it, it says that if you rip a BD+ title with AnyDVD and then normal file copy the missing folders, BD+ can't tell the difference from the BD and the harddrive, so it plays back the movie perfectly.

Who would have thought that BD+ is independent of the AACS DRM?
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Old 1st November 2007, 01:04   #118  |  Link
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Who would have thought that BD+ is independent of the AACS DRM?
Somehow I get the feeling it's not supposed to be. Most likely it's a bug in PowerDVD that will eventually get patched. However, it's quite interesting for now, for sure. Now if I could only get my darn PS3 to play nice and allow me to image my Blu-ray discs to my external drive I'd be golden. Almost there on that one. My new HTPC components arrive sometime next week, so, I'm definitely ready.
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Old 1st November 2007, 11:31   #119  |  Link
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Somehow I get the feeling it's not supposed to be. Most likely it's a bug in PowerDVD that will eventually get patched.
Wouldn't it be more like a design bug in BD+? It seams to me that they have forgot to implement a media check in BD+...
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Old 1st November 2007, 12:44   #120  |  Link
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And my hat is off to you too as you appear to be the only one who has achieved this feat.

It would have been nice to know what you learned about the obfuscation/hiding and how you learned it - purely as an intellectual interest - but I understand that you probably don't want to tell your competitors, those who wrote the obfuscation/hiding routines and the AACS about your techniques and failures/successes. Perhaps one day, though ...
It could be a book like Andew Bunnies "Hacking the XBox" book, sold for $9.99 at Slysoft =)

"Hacking AACS and BD+ for beginners"

=)

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