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15th April 2007, 13:56  #1  Link 
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High bitrate/quality CQMs used on Bluray
Thanks to two colleagues i got my hand on the NAL info for two bluray titles using custom quant matrices:
The Prestige (Disney / Buena Vista) has the cqm stored in PPS XMen 3 (20th Century Fox) has the cqm stored in SPS I guess they were produced by different encoders If someone has some time to spend he might convert them into .cfg standard style cqm files
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Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG4 ASP FAQ  AVC/H.264 FAQ  AAC FAQ  MP4 FAQ  MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora  Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free 
15th April 2007, 15:34  #2  Link 
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Prestige CQM:
Code:
#Prestige CQM INTRA4X4_LUMA = 6,7,10,16, 7,7,11,17, 10,11,12,20, 12,13,20,16 INTRA4X4_CHROMAU = 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16 INTRA4X4_CHROMAV = 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16 INTER4X4_LUMA = 10,13,28,41, 13,14,32,84, 28,32,41,111, 41,46,111,16 INTER4X4_CHROMAU = 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16 INTER4X4_CHROMAV = 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16, 16,16,16,16 INTRA8X8_LUMA = 9,9,10,10,11,16,21,29, 9,9,10,10,11,16,21,29, 10,10,10,10,11,16,22,31, 10,10,10,11,11,17,23,33, 11,11,11,11,11,19,25,36, 12,12,13,13,14,20,27,40, 15,15,16,16,21,27,31,45, 20,20,21,22,36,40,45,16 INTER8X8_LUMA = 12,13,15,18,20,70,163,255, 13,13,16,18,20,72,170,255, 15,16,17,19,21,81,190,255, 18,18,19,21,23,96,228,255, 20,20,21,23,25,120,255,255, 33,34,36,39,45,32,255,255, 64,66,71,80,164,255,255,255, 151,155,169,192,255,255,255,10 The 4X4 luma matrices look like smaller counterparts, there are no chroma matrices. Xmen3 CQM: Code:
#Xmen3 CQM INTRA4X4_LUMA = 5,9,23,32, 9,12,32,32, 23,32,32,32, 32,32,32,32 INTRA4X4_CHROMAU = 5,9,23,32, 9,12,32,32, 23,32,32,32, 32,32,32,32 INTRA4X4_CHROMAV = 5,9,23,32, 9,12,32,32, 23,32,32,32, 32,32,32,32 INTER4X4_LUMA = 9,13,20,24, 13,20,24,29, 20,24,29,29, 24,29,29,29 INTER4X4_CHROMAU = 9,13,20,24, 13,20,24,29, 20,24,29,29, 24,29,29,29 INTER4X4_CHROMAV = 9,13,20,24, 13,20,24,29, 20,24,29,29, 24,29,29,29 INTRA8X8_LUMA = 5,8,11,15,19,26,32,32, 8,9,15,19,26,32,32,32, 11,15,19,26,32,32,32,32, 15,19,26,32,32,32,32,32, 19,26,32,32,32,32,32,32, 26,32,32,32,32,32,32,32, 32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32, 32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32 INTER8X8_LUMA = 9,12,14,16,18,21,23,26, 12,13,16,18,21,23,26,29, 14,16,18,21,23,26,29,29, 16,18,21,23,26,29,29,29, 18,21,23,26,29,29,29,29, 21,23,26,29,29,29,29,29, 23,26,29,29,29,29,29,29, 26,29,29,29,29,29,29,29 The 4X4 luma matrices look like smaller counterparts, The chroma matrices are the same as their 4x4 luma counterparts. Last edited by *.mp4 guy; 15th April 2007 at 15:58. 
15th April 2007, 18:17  #4  Link 
Testeur de codecs
Join Date: May 2003
Location: France
Posts: 2,419

and here for casino royale (really grainy movie)
Pic Scaling List[0] Present Flag: 1 delta: 2 scaling list[0][0]: 6 delta: 1 scaling list[0][1]: 7 delta: 0 scaling list[0][2]: 7 delta: 3 scaling list[0][3]: 10 delta: 3 scaling list[0][4]: 7 delta: 3 scaling list[0][5]: 10 delta: 6 scaling list[0][6]: 16 delta: 5 scaling list[0][7]: 11 delta: 0 scaling list[0][8]: 11 delta: 1 scaling list[0][9]: 12 delta: 1 scaling list[0][10]: 13 delta: 1 scaling list[0][11]: 12 delta: 5 scaling list[0][12]: 17 delta: 3 scaling list[0][13]: 20 delta: 0 scaling list[0][14]: 20 delta: 4 scaling list[0][15]: 16 Pic Scaling List[1] Present Flag: 0 Pic Scaling List[2] Present Flag: 0 Pic Scaling List[3] Present Flag: 1 delta: 2 scaling list[3][0]: 10 delta: 3 scaling list[3][1]: 13 delta: 0 scaling list[3][2]: 13 delta: 15 scaling list[3][3]: 28 delta: 14 scaling list[3][4]: 14 delta: 14 scaling list[3][5]: 28 delta: 13 scaling list[3][6]: 41 delta: 9 scaling list[3][7]: 32 delta: 0 scaling list[3][8]: 32 delta: 9 scaling list[3][9]: 41 delta: 5 scaling list[3][10]: 46 delta: 5 scaling list[3][11]: 41 delta: 43 scaling list[3][12]: 84 delta: 27 scaling list[3][13]: 111 delta: 0 scaling list[3][14]: 111 delta: 95 scaling list[3][15]: 16 Pic Scaling List[4] Present Flag: 0 Pic Scaling List[5] Present Flag: 0 Pic Scaling List[6] Present Flag: 1 delta: 1 scaling list[6][0]: 9 delta: 0 scaling list[6][1]: 9 delta: 0 scaling list[6][2]: 9 delta: 1 scaling list[6][3]: 10 delta: 1 scaling list[6][4]: 9 delta: 1 scaling list[6][5]: 10 delta: 0 scaling list[6][6]: 10 delta: 0 scaling list[6][7]: 10 delta: 0 scaling list[6][8]: 10 delta: 0 scaling list[6][9]: 10 delta: 1 scaling list[6][10]: 11 delta: 1 scaling list[6][11]: 10 delta: 0 scaling list[6][12]: 10 delta: 0 scaling list[6][13]: 10 delta: 1 scaling list[6][14]: 11 delta: 5 scaling list[6][15]: 16 delta: 5 scaling list[6][16]: 11 delta: 1 scaling list[6][17]: 10 delta: 0 scaling list[6][18]: 10 delta: 1 scaling list[6][19]: 11 delta: 1 scaling list[6][20]: 12 delta: 3 scaling list[6][21]: 15 delta: 3 scaling list[6][22]: 12 delta: 1 scaling list[6][23]: 11 delta: 0 scaling list[6][24]: 11 delta: 0 scaling list[6][25]: 11 delta: 5 scaling list[6][26]: 16 delta: 5 scaling list[6][27]: 21 delta: 8 scaling list[6][28]: 29 delta: 8 scaling list[6][29]: 21 delta: 5 scaling list[6][30]: 16 delta: 5 scaling list[6][31]: 11 delta: 0 scaling list[6][32]: 11 delta: 2 scaling list[6][33]: 13 delta: 2 scaling list[6][34]: 15 delta: 5 scaling list[6][35]: 20 delta: 0 scaling list[6][36]: 20 delta: 4 scaling list[6][37]: 16 delta: 3 scaling list[6][38]: 13 delta: 2 scaling list[6][39]: 11 delta: 6 scaling list[6][40]: 17 delta: 5 scaling list[6][41]: 22 delta: 7 scaling list[6][42]: 29 delta: 2 scaling list[6][43]: 31 delta: 8 scaling list[6][44]: 23 delta: 4 scaling list[6][45]: 19 delta: 5 scaling list[6][46]: 14 delta: 2 scaling list[6][47]: 16 delta: 5 scaling list[6][48]: 21 delta: 1 scaling list[6][49]: 22 delta: 1 scaling list[6][50]: 21 delta: 1 scaling list[6][51]: 20 delta: 5 scaling list[6][52]: 25 delta: 8 scaling list[6][53]: 33 delta: 3 scaling list[6][54]: 36 delta: 9 scaling list[6][55]: 27 delta: 0 scaling list[6][56]: 27 delta: 9 scaling list[6][57]: 36 delta: 4 scaling list[6][58]: 40 delta: 9 scaling list[6][59]: 31 delta: 9 scaling list[6][60]: 40 delta: 5 scaling list[6][61]: 45 delta: 0 scaling list[6][62]: 45 delta: 29 scaling list[6][63]: 16 Pic Scaling List[7] Present Flag: 1 delta: 4 scaling list[7][0]: 12 delta: 1 scaling list[7][1]: 13 delta: 0 scaling list[7][2]: 13 delta: 2 scaling list[7][3]: 15 delta: 2 scaling list[7][4]: 13 delta: 2 scaling list[7][5]: 15 delta: 3 scaling list[7][6]: 18 delta: 2 scaling list[7][7]: 16 delta: 0 scaling list[7][8]: 16 delta: 2 scaling list[7][9]: 18 delta: 2 scaling list[7][10]: 20 delta: 2 scaling list[7][11]: 18 delta: 1 scaling list[7][12]: 17 delta: 1 scaling list[7][13]: 18 delta: 2 scaling list[7][14]: 20 delta: 50 scaling list[7][15]: 70 delta: 50 scaling list[7][16]: 20 delta: 1 scaling list[7][17]: 19 delta: 0 scaling list[7][18]: 19 delta: 1 scaling list[7][19]: 20 delta: 13 scaling list[7][20]: 33 delta: 31 scaling list[7][21]: 64 delta: 30 scaling list[7][22]: 34 delta: 13 scaling list[7][23]: 21 delta: 0 scaling list[7][24]: 21 delta: 0 scaling list[7][25]: 21 delta: 51 scaling list[7][26]: 72 delta: 91 scaling list[7][27]: 163 delta: 92 scaling list[7][28]: 255 delta: 85 scaling list[7][29]: 170 delta: 89 scaling list[7][30]: 81 delta: 58 scaling list[7][31]: 23 delta: 0 scaling list[7][32]: 23 delta: 13 scaling list[7][33]: 36 delta: 30 scaling list[7][34]: 66 delta: 85 scaling list[7][35]: 151 delta: 4 scaling list[7][36]: 155 delta: 84 scaling list[7][37]: 71 delta: 32 scaling list[7][38]: 39 delta: 14 scaling list[7][39]: 25 delta: 71 scaling list[7][40]: 96 delta: 94 scaling list[7][41]: 190 delta: 65 scaling list[7][42]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][43]: 255 delta: 27 scaling list[7][44]: 228 delta: 108 scaling list[7][45]: 120 delta: 75 scaling list[7][46]: 45 delta: 35 scaling list[7][47]: 80 delta: 89 scaling list[7][48]: 169 delta: 23 scaling list[7][49]: 192 delta: 28 scaling list[7][50]: 164 delta: 124 scaling list[7][51]: 32 delta: 33 scaling list[7][52]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][53]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][54]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][55]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][56]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][57]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][58]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][59]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][60]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][61]: 255 delta: 0 scaling list[7][62]: 255 delta: 11 scaling list[7][63]: 10
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Le Sagittaire ... ;) 1 Ateme AVC or x264 2 VP7 or RV10 only for anime 3 XviD, DivX or WMV9 
15th April 2007, 19:02  #6  Link 
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Casino Royale is from MGM. Using the same matrix as Disney/Buena Vista might tell that the two studios use the same encoder
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Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG4 ASP FAQ  AVC/H.264 FAQ  AAC FAQ  MP4 FAQ  MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora  Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free 
15th April 2007, 19:22  #9  Link 
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or, its a bug
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Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG4 ASP FAQ  AVC/H.264 FAQ  AAC FAQ  MP4 FAQ  MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora  Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free 
15th April 2007, 19:26  #10  Link 
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Posts: 2,393

If only that one coefficient is small, then the only grain you can represent is a pattern that looks exactly like that one dct basis function. And basis function #63 is near zero at all the block edges, so regardless of whether it makes good grain, I don't think it can hide blocking artifacts.

22nd April 2007, 09:14  #12  Link 
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Hi all,
the new encoder (for this 3 movies) is BAEVA 7000 from Sony. It can use network process encoding (like PEP but much better for quality because H264....). The price it is not nice (around 140.000USD.....). The BD were made by DADC US (may be europe). Last best H264 encoder is come from Thomson, it use the FGT option (Film Grain Technology). It design to do everything with best quality of encoding. To my mind after NAB, I can say VC1 will die soon (all video hardware manufactories have H264 solution).... I surprise to see all Sonic solution on web but not the other best solutions ( Ulead/MemoryTech, Sony BluPrint 4.0, Tiger AVC, PEP,....). I see last version of Eclipse to test the compliance of HD DVD project but nothing (cracked on web) about DataRius, from DCA, used by all replicator in Europe (all replicator in US use Eclipse...). And I surprise sometime to listen strange song from all video actors:  Some authoring studio do hacking to make BD from HD DVD source.But the first BD without Sony process will come soon I hope it will work on all BD player (it is a BD25 because there is only Sony which do BD50, replicator will do BD 50 next year....). But there are good actor on market which believe at H264 since first time to use on HD format. I tolk about european company, I can say "Hi all" because there is lot of companies (authoring studio, replicator, video studio, MS,...) which come to read this forum to find "the best" informations (AACS cracking, best solution/way to encode,....). Golgot13 Last edited by Golgot13; 23rd April 2007 at 11:35. 
24th April 2007, 00:39  #14  Link 
Mmmmmmmmangoscam!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 51

I'll probably try the prestige/MGM matrix out on a reencode of Layer Cake I'm doing, that movie also has the same crazy grain as Casino Royale did. If people want I'd be happy to post screenshot comparisons of the source vs a ~10mbit reencode using that matrix.

26th April 2007, 07:39  #16  Link 
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Hi,
i think it would be more interesting to compare a 10Mbps recode with your standard HQ/Hi bitrate matrix with a recode with the MGM matrix (of cause using the same AVS script). Comparing it with the source, without an indicator how good it is in comparison to a standard matrix seems a bit pointless to me. That comparison couldn't show the advantage over a standard matrix. Regards McCauley 
26th April 2007, 15:51  #17  Link  
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Quote:
I'll be intersted to see if it makes a significant difference keeping the quality high, without negative effects on bitrate and/or quality of highmovement parts etc. Especialy because the BR seems to be "reference quality". 

28th April 2007, 09:47  #20  Link 
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Location: Australia
Posts: 269

Just a quick test on a videoclip thats not really grainy, but it has lots of detail;
Original EQM_AVC_HR PRESTIGE Original EQM_AVC_HR PRESTIGE Original EQM_AVC_HR PRESTIGE Settings used; Code:
x264.exe crf 19 trellis 2 ref 3 mixedrefs nofastpskip bframes 2 bpyramid bime weightb direct none filter 2,1 analyse all 8x8dct threads 2 threadinput progress nodctdecimate nopsnr nossim output "pres_hh.mp4" "hh.avs" aqstrength 0.9 aqsensitivity 15 cqmfile "either prestige or eqm_avc_hr :P " Last edited by R3Z; 28th April 2007 at 14:57. Reason: Added original mpeg shots for lexor 
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