Sonic CineVision & VC1 HDDVD

[Toti]

I've been testing Sonic's CineVision 1.2 encoding in VC1 & AVC for HD-DVD.

I have already tried MainConcept in an attemp to create HD-DVD compliant AVC files in this thread

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=123409

I was really impressed to see the quality of AVC compared to MPEG2. Now, VC1 is even more efficient meaning that you can squeezed even better quality out of those HD-DVDs on Dual layers.

How good is VC1 compared to AVC see for yourself. First get CineVision 1.2 (lots of bugs fixed from V1.1).

The Problem: CineVision keeps encoding the VC1 file as 4:3 therefore Scenarist HD will create a video that looks squeezed.

However, you can play back the .vc1 file using PowerDVD 6.5 and see the quality at the original 16:9 ratio.

Does anyone know of a program that can change the aspect ratio on a .vc1 file? I know of WMV aspect changer by Crypto

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=116761

but it only works with VC1 files that are wrapped around ASF.

Any Ideas?

If anyone can tell me how to upload a small .vc1 file for everyone to see.

[Toti]

It turns out that Sonic's CineVision 1.2 works fine in VC1 but only at resolution 1280X720 & 1920X1080. The quality of VC1 is impressive, you can reduce the bitrate to an impressive 4~5Mbps and still not notice any bad compression.

This is good news for sources like:

HD-DVD & Bluray 1920X1080
OTA CBS 1920X1080
OTA FOX 1280X1080

Bad News for DirecTVHD which is 1280X1080 meaning that only AVC is supported at that exact resolution and AVC has a bug with the pulldown

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=123409

meaning you will either upscale to fullHD or drop it to 720p. You will need a dual layer for 1920X1080 in order to preserve the quality.

It seems not many people interested on this or they can't get CineVision because I don't see comments but to those interested here are the script that works with each type of video.

1280X720 running at 59.96fps like OTA FoxHD, DirecTVHD ESPN & National GeographicHD.

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5.7\plugins\DGDecode.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5.7\plugins\Decomb521.dll")

mpeg2source("C:\24 Season 6\Day 6 6to7AM.d2v",  upConv=1)

Telecide(1,guide=1,vthresh=25)

Decimate(cycle=2)
Decimate(cycle=5)

FieldDeinterlace(Full=False,threshold=15,dthreshold=9)

HD-DVD, Bluray & OTA CBS 1920X1080p (telecined)

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5.7\plugins\DGDecode.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5.7\plugins\Decomb521.dll")

mpeg2source("C:\Back To The Future\MainMovie.d2v",  upConv=1)

Telecide(1,guide=1,vthresh=25)

Decimate(cycle=5)

FieldDeinterlace(Full=False,threshold=15,dthreshold=9)

Crop(4,4,-4,-4)  //DirecTVHD ONLY

BilinearResize(1920,1080) //DirecTVHD ONLY

OTA 1920X1080i True Interlace

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5.7\plugins\DGDecode.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5.7\plugins\Decomb521.dll")

mpeg2source("C:\SuperBowl\MainMovie.d2v",  upConv=1)

FieldDeinterlace(Full=True,threshold=15,dthreshold=9)

To Input into CineVision you have to use VFAPIConv 1.05 and how to use it

In order to have VFAPICon to work.  It is requires as VFAPI has to be registered as a 
video codec to be recognized the by application on the receiving end.  To do this 


1. Run proxyoff.reg which comes with VirtualDub (it's in your plugins 
subdirectory to the directory where you copied VirtualDub into) and answer yes to 
the question that will pop up. 

2. Run vifpset.bat that comes in the VFAPI distribution.

I'll be testing some of my HD-DVD library later. For now there is a proven solution for HD-DVD encoding. Ofcourse, I have to get myself an HD-DVD recorder.

[zambelli]

Originally Posted by Toti

It turns out that Sonic's CineVision 1.2 works fine in VC1 but only at resolution 1280X720 & 1920X1080. The quality of VC1 is impressive, you can reduce the bitrate to an impressive 4~5Mbps and still not notice any bad compression.

Actually, I think it might be just the Microsoft WMV decoder that doesn't respect aspect ratio flags set in the .vc1 bitstrems. I think it only knows to respect aspect ratio set in ASF metadata.

It seems not many people interested on this or they can't get CineVision because I don't see comments but to those interested here are the script that works with each type of video.

Depends what the price is. If the product is expensive and no trial version is freely available for download, it's likely most people can't afford it.

As for the scripts... Check out the Avisynth usage forum - there are now much better deinterlacers available than Decomb.

To Input into CineVision you have to use VFAPIConv 1.05 and how to use it

If the app only takes AVI input, you might not need VFAPI after all - it might be enough to just use Ffdshow and the MakeAVIS utility that comes with it.

[dvdboy]

Originally Posted by Toti

It turns out that Sonic's CineVision 1.2 works fine in VC1 but only at resolution 1280X720 & 1920X1080. The quality of VC1 is impressive, you can reduce the bitrate to an impressive 4~5Mbps and still not notice any bad compression.

Really? As I stated in another thread, I noticed pixellation on video in the 7 - 8Mbps range at 1920x1080 on a 2-pass encode via Sonic Cinevision 1.1 - it was especially noticable on areas of red.

Maybe they've improved the encoder... Haven't upgraded yet as I'm halfway through a project on 1.1.

[bond]

obviously the quality doesnt only depend on the bitrate used, but also the complexity of the content

so there can be ugly encodes and nice ones even at the same bitrate...

[Sagittaire]

It turns out that Sonic's CineVision 1.2 works fine in VC1 but only at resolution 1280X720 & 1920X1080. The quality of VC1 is impressive, you can reduce the bitrate to an impressive 4~5Mbps and still not notice any bad compression.

hmmm ... VC1 from Mainconcept SDK seem a very basic compliant implementation if you compare with VC1 from MS. H264 from Mainconcept SDK done by far better quality at medium/high quantisation level.

[Clown shoes]

Originally Posted by Toti

I have already tried MainConcept in an attemp to create HD-DVD compliant AVC files in this thread

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=123409

As I mentioned to you in the Mainconcept bugs thread, I think the probelms you are having may not just be down to the software. I have more testing to do but I can confirm my output is smooth and my output running time matches my source running time. However that I am having some muxing issues within Scenarist that I need to examine.

Originally Posted by Toti

Bad News for DirecTVHD which is 1280X1080 meaning that only AVC is supported at that exact resolution and AVC has a bug with the pulldown

The AVC codec does not have a bug with pulldown. The Elecard page you linked to mentions a GUI limitation not an encoder one. This easy to workaround using a profile in the Elecard software and similarly with an avisynth script within the mainconcept software. Also remember there are already commercial HD releases using .h264 so it can be done.

Originally Posted by Toti

It seems not many people interested on this or they can't get CineVision because I don't see comments

LOL that's because my boss will spend £600.00 on the Mainconcept software but he is slightly more reluctant to fork out about £30,000.00 on a peice of software that appears to currently have many teething problems of it's own. You will definately find less people in a possition to test out Cinevision. I am lucky as a friend of mine works at a larger authoring house that have most of the Scenarist HD suite, and he lets me play around after hours when it's not in use Another point to remember is the Mainconcept encoder is able to use all 8 threads on my machine but the Cinevision encoder only appeared to use 2 threads on the rig I tested (which also had 8 processors)

Originally Posted by Toti

I was really impressed to see the quality of AVC compared to MPEG2. Now, VC1 is even more efficient meaning that you can squeezed even better quality out of those HD-DVDs on Dual layers.

Do you really find VC1 to be that much more efficient? Can I ask what your basing this on? Not that I doubt you, I am just keen to find the best solution for transfering to DVD9.

Originally Posted by Toti

However, you can play back the .vc1 file using PowerDVD 6.5 and see the quality at the original 16:9 ratio.

The problem is, the ultimate output destination for many of us is standalone players. Therfore a 4:3 ratio is just not practical.

[Toti]

Hello Clown,

I have tested the following

From DirecTVHD:

Sunrise Earth - this video contains lots of almost still images so on both AVC and VC1 there is almost no difference 8436 Mbps enough for a single layer DVD of one Episode of Sunrise Earth Alaska.

SAW 2, Back To The Future 1,2 & 3, StarWars 2,3,4 & 5, Serenity, Apocalypse Now Redux, Kingdom Of Heavens, The Transporter 2. Only Apocalypse Now Redux showed less compression than AVC at 8 Mbps.

From Comcast HDTV: I only have a The Incredibles. Looks identical to the original in AVC not much to report here.

From HD-DVD:

The Hulk, Superman Returns & King Kong. Still testing these but I won't encode AVC on these. I'll post the results when I finished.

Over The Air: I'll test it next after HD-DVDs.

I have just finished my Back To The Future VC1 encode. Honestly, I can't tell the difference from the original. Note: DirecTV HD HDNET total size was 9.5 gigs so the source is not prestine like HD-DVDs. Example, Superman Returns the movie alone is 21Gigs. Let me do some more encodes and I'll tell you then......but try it. VC1 is really good!

Anybody else have performed encodes in AVC and VC1 then created a HD-DVD with Scenarist? I just wish I had Advanced Content. I also have the Scenarist HDMV Bluray but I really want to stay away from bluray. I heard that HD-DVD is going to be natively supported by Vista when the update comes.

[oberon]

@toti
I have been playing around with reencoding hd-dvd using vc-1 in cinevision. Playtime and frames are the same as the source but the audio and video are always out of sync. Pts data for both tracks are the same so they should sync up. I think clownshoes states he had the same issue using cinemaster 4.2. Can you show me exactly how you are setting up your reencode?

[Toti]

Originally Posted by oberon

@toti
I have been playing around with reencoding hd-dvd using vc-1 in cinevision. Playtime and frames are the same as the source but the audio and video are always out of sync. Pts data for both tracks are the same so they should sync up. I think clownshoes states he had the same issue using cinemaster 4.2. Can you show me exactly how you are setting up your reencode?

Hi Oberon, on #2 on this thread I explain and even put the Script. If you tell me what versions of CineVision & Scenarist you are using along with what source & avs script I might be able to help you.

Right now, I am extremelly happy with my VC1 results. It works awesome I am currently learning how to use Scenarist Advanced Content 4.1. Encoding the Super Bowl now but so far the quality is outstanding the most impressive is that 8 Gigs is way than enough. It makes me think what's the buzz about blu-ray and its 50 gigs. Do they really need that much space? I think 30 gigs is even too much, single layer HD-DVDs is good enough. Anybody else has comments?

[Clown shoes]

Hi Oberon,

It is strange that we are both getting the same issue when re-encoding HD-DVD material. Like you my PTS data tells me there is only milliseconds difference, but in reality it is more like 11 seconds!

Can I ask your process for preparing the HD-DVD material and also the title you are having problems with?

[ACrowley]

Are you guys having the DTS HD (Pro Series)and Cinevision Audio Transcoder (AC3) included in Sonic Cinevision 1.2 ?

It has to be included ,according to the Sonic Website

http://www.sonic.com/products/Profes...sion/faqs.aspx

In the Docs you can read both Encoders are included on the Sonic installationDisc a a seperate Apps with own installer.

[Clown shoes]

Sorry Crowley, I'm not sure. I'm using Cinevision at my friends work and I've only been working with video so far.

[oberon]

I am trying to reencode accepted I demuxed with evodemux .623b and in graphedit its the mpv-elecard demuxer-sonic cinemaster video 4.2 avs script is
directshowsource("f:\accepted.grf"fps-23.976,audio=false,seekzero=false,seek=true,framecount=133920)

I did enter the dragon a while back and everything went ok when I encoded it with mainconcept avc. But this has me stumped.

[Toti]

Originally Posted by oberon

I am trying to reencode accepted I demuxed with evodemux .623b and in graphedit its the mpv-elecard demuxer-sonic cinemaster video 4.2 avs script is
directshowsource("f:\accepted.grf"fps-23.976,audio=false,seekzero=false,seek=true,framecount=133920)

I did enter the dragon a while back and everything went ok when I encoded it with mainconcept avc. But this has me stumped.

@Oberon, I didn't want to answer anything till I did some testing, muxing and authoring. You have to tell me what program you are using to author your HD-DVDs and what versions of MainConcept.

HD-DVD & CineVision findings:

CineVision 1.2
Scenarist Standard Content 4.12
VC1 works only at 1920X1080 (23.976 pulldown) or 29.97 no pulldown
VC1 at any other resolution will give you a 4:3 picture or pulldown looks choppy or missing frames.

AVC does not work at any resolution with pulldown. If you encode with no pulldown works fine. Ex. 1280X720 at 59.96 fps progressive no pulldown.

CineVision 1.2
Scenarist Advanced Content 4.11
Works fine with any resolution either (I tested 1280X720, 1280X1080 & 1920X1080)VC1 or AVC with pulldown or without pulldown. However, .ac3 audio has small distortion at volume peaks (muxing problem?).

This makes me believe that the problem does not lies with the encoded video but with Scenarist muxer. Hard for me to believe but true.

I still have not yet tested HD-DVDs source but I assume the same results. Now the problem I have is does anyone knows a tutorial or at least a guide how to do Advanced Content menus? Scenarist manual does not help just tells you how to drop the Advance content into the timeline but I still don't know if the programming is done inside Scenarist or...? I am not looking for an "idiot's guide" but at least point me in the right direction.

[Toti]

I forgot to mention the quality of VC1. Hands down the quality of VC1 is superior to that of AVC.

It's true at some bitrate like 8~11 Mbps Average you can't tell the difference between the two but when you drop it down to 4~8 Mbps.

VC1 still keeps the crispness to the extent that I decided to "test, what if?" I put my DirecTVHD encodes on a single layer DVD to see how they look. I was "wowed" since I expected some compression to be obvious and they look identical at the same res 1280X1080. AVC at that low bitrate starts to show some compression artifacts. I was really impressed!

Over the air like CSINY I keep it at two episodes per single layer at 1920X1080p @ 23.976 and they look even better in VC1 than the original (probably CineVision filters?)

Comparison is extremelly easy with CineVision. After it finishes to encode you can SYNC both videos and go frame by frame (you even have a bitrate graph to show you where the bitrate goes off the roof to keep an eye on those scenes).

Since is true, the quality depends greatly on the video content and bitrate but a movie where you don't have much movement bitrate can drop. Why is most people encoding on AVC? Try VC1 and see for yourself.

I want to hear other people's finding (actual encoding) not assumptions.

[Clown shoes]

Originally Posted by oberon

I am trying to reencode accepted I demuxed with evodemux .623b and in graphedit its the mpv-elecard demuxer-sonic cinemaster video 4.2 avs script is
directshowsource("f:\accepted.grf"fps-23.976,audio=false,seekzero=false,seek=true,framecount=133920)

I did enter the dragon a while back and everything went ok when I encoded it with mainconcept avc. But this has me stumped.

Hi Oberon, that's the same graph set up and script that I use. I am strating to wonder if this might be an issue with evodemux on certain titles.

@Toti

You will need to do a lot of reading if you want to start working with Advanced content. A good knowledge of HTML would also be a help. There is a great blog by Peter Torr to get you started as well.

http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/...D/default.aspx

If you need help with XML, check some of these tutorials

http://www.w3schools.com/

I also recommend downloading the IHD jumpstart kit from the Microsoft website.

With regard to VC1 encoding with Cinevision, I encoded a two hour feature with a max bitrate of 22,000 kbps and an average bitrate of 8,500 kbps. It imported without problems into Scenarist standard content, but failed on the mux giving a maximum bitrate exceeded error. I think it could be a VBV problem which is very annoying seeing as both products are made by Sonic meaning an HD-DVD template should work perfectly.

Could you test out an encode for me Toti, just to see if you get the same results? 1920 x 1080p, 23.976 with pulldown, 2 x pass, average bitrate of 8,500 kbps and a max bitrate of 22,000 kbps. It should import fine into Scenarist Standard content, but I want to know if you can mux it.

Cheers

[Toti]

Originally Posted by Clown shoes

Could you test out an encode for me Toti, just to see if you get the same results? 1920 x 1080p, 23.976 with pulldown, 2 x pass, average bitrate of 8,500 kbps and a max bitrate of 22,000 kbps. It should import fine into Scenarist Standard content, but I want to know if you can mux it.
Cheers

Hello Clown, Thanks for the links I'll be doing the reading what's cool is that I know alot about web page building so this should not be that hard.

I have already encoded VC1 at 1920X1080p 23.976fps with pulldown (CineVision 1.2) and used Scenarist Standard Content 4.1 and it worked good. However, the bit rate was different I used
Peak 20 Mbps
Average 8.5 Mbps

I'll encode a piece of video at those bitrate. By the way, what's your version of Scenarist & Cinevision and the problem you got it tells you "Total Bitrate is Too High"? weird. The Total max should be around 29Mbps with all the streams.

[oberon]

CineVision 1.2
Scenarist Standard Content 4.12
VC1 works only at 1920X1080 (23.976 pulldown) or 29.97 no pulldown
VC1 at any other resolution will give you a 4:3 picture or pulldown looks choppy or missing frames.

AVC does not work at any resolution with pulldown. If you encode with no pulldown works fine. Ex. 1280X720 at 59.96 fps progressive no pulldown.
[/QUOTE]

I guess thats why when I encoded enter the dragon @ 1280x720 59.96fps It worked.

I am trying a different route. That looked like it worked in a 3 min sample.

Instead of building a a graph, I am rebuilding the evo with just the vc-1 video in evodemux. Then using Haali Media Splitter and latest ffdshow.

Then using DirectShowSource ("C:\Movie\Backup.evo",video=true,audio=false,fps=23.976,framecount=NNNNNN,seek=false,seekzero=false)

This way I can bypass cinemaster 4.2 wich may be causing a framerate issue.

But on a diffent note. When I try using cinevision 1.2 to encode vc-1 using cbr 9000kbps and vbv setting 14811 the encoding will run and when its close to finishing I get vbv buffer too small please reduce bitrate.

[Toti]

@ Oberon & Clown,

It seems you both are getting "Total Bitrate is Too High" when encoding VC1 in CineVision. I don't really set my max bitrate too high (18~25 Mbps) because my source is DirecTVHD. On OTA quality is good so I do max it out at 20 Mbps because the source's max bitrate is 19 Mbps. Quality is outstanding, now I know that you guys probably have another source like Bluray or HDDVD which explains why you want to get as close to the peak as possible.

If you use CineVision after you encode look at the bitrate graph and see if the actual bitrate goes over your max (it shouldn't) but if it does you can re-encode just that piece. Also, it could be that the bitrate of the audio is way too high? DirecTVHD peaks its AC3 at 384kbps which is nothing compared to TrueHD or DTSHD.

I think is that your audio bitrate is high and when you add the video it goes over. Anyway, if you are using VC1 (trust me on this) lower the max bitrate say 20 or 19 and then look at the results in a big HDTV and let your eye be the judge.

I also forgot to mention when encoding VC1 is about 40 percent faster than AVC but during playback AVC consumes less cpu.

I'll be encoding one of my HDDVDs right after this one finishes (MI3 DirecTVHD PPV) so I'll post the results. Does anyone knows the bitrate of Dolby Digital Plus & TrueHD? HD-DVDs does not support DTS only DTSHD