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Old 17th May 2006, 04:01   #1  |  Link
siddharthagandhi
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WMV9 AP Information Discussion

"Keep in mind that WMP11 updates both Main Profile (WMV3) and Advanced Profile (WVC1) encoders, so for true evidence of improvement you should be comparing them to the old WMP9 or WMP10 versions of WMV3."

I selected the Windows Media Video 9 codec in Nic's WM Encoder. And I was using CBR encoding. Perhaps that is the reason...but shouldn't there be an improvement regardless?

And my testing methodology was simple. Take a clip, encode it in WMV 9 AP. Then Encode it in WMV 9 (those were the names of the "profiles"). Watch each, see which one looks better. I also compared it to an xvid and x264 and nd avc encode of it. The latter three were better (by a large margin) than both WMV 9 AP and normal...
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Old 17th May 2006, 04:42   #2  |  Link
zambelli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siddharthagandhi
I selected the Windows Media Video 9 codec in Nic's WM Encoder. And I was using CBR encoding. Perhaps that is the reason...but shouldn't there be an improvement regardless?
I don't know what your content was. If you're encoding, say, progressive 512x384 content, the difference between Main and Advanced Profile might be negligible in that scenario.

See if you can find an old video encoded with the old WMV9 codec. Encode the same source with the WMP11 codecs and see if you can spot the difference.

Quote:
And my testing methodology was simple. Take a clip, encode it in WMV 9 AP. Then Encode it in WMV 9 (those were the names of the "profiles"). Watch each, see which one looks better. I also compared it to an xvid and x264 and nd avc encode of it. The latter three were better (by a large margin) than both WMV 9 AP and normal...
Were the AVC encodes also done with default settings? Make sure you're not comparing apples to oranges. There are plenty of WMV9 AP settings to tweak too.
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Old 17th May 2006, 12:38   #3  |  Link
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Will there be a CLI encoder?
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Old 17th May 2006, 13:18   #4  |  Link
dohcmark8
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The WMP11 beta is out... http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...1/default.aspx

Last edited by dohcmark8; 17th May 2006 at 14:03.
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Old 17th May 2006, 13:52   #5  |  Link
GmorG McRoth
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I's there any GUI that whuld allow me to play with those advanced encoder settings? Editing registry like outlined here is not the most user friendly way.
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Old 17th May 2006, 14:04   #6  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GmorG McRoth
I's there any GUI that whuld allow me to play with those advanced encoder settings? Editing registry like outlined here is not the most user friendly way.
Not that I've seen yet. But I think WME Studio Edition will... dont quote me on that though.. im just guessing.
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Old 17th May 2006, 19:50   #7  |  Link
zambelli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirber
Will there be a CLI encoder?
I'm working on an update to wmcmd.vbs to be used with WME9.
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Old 17th May 2006, 19:53   #8  |  Link
zambelli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GmorG McRoth
I's there any GUI that whuld allow me to play with those advanced encoder settings? Editing registry like outlined here is not the most user friendly way.
Not at the moment. How are your C++/VB/C# skills these days? Volunteers are always welcome!
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Old 17th May 2006, 20:01   #9  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zambelli
I'm working on an update to wmcmd.vbs to be used with WME9.
I ment, any command line console win32 text mode application to encode with VC1? With AVS as input and WMV as output?
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Old 17th May 2006, 21:13   #10  |  Link
siddharthagandhi
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"See if you can find an old video encoded with the old WMV9 codec. Encode the same source with the WMP11 codecs and see if you can spot the difference."

I have a clip. I compared it. There was almost no difference or improvement. I heard that the official beta has improvement over the leaked one. I'm testing that as we speak.

And yes, AVC encodes were done with default settings. Even an AVC encode with a bitrate 500 lower looked better. Now that's saying something.
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Old 17th May 2006, 22:30   #11  |  Link
zambelli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirber
I ment, any command line console win32 text mode application to encode with VC1? With AVS as input and WMV as output?
Microsoft is not planning on releasing one, if that's your question.
A command-line encoding app should be easy to implement. Just look at Nic's encoder implementation. It's pretty much based entirely on the CUncompAVIToWMV sample from the SDK.
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Old 18th May 2006, 02:53   #12  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GmorG McRoth
I's there any GUI that whuld allow me to play with those advanced encoder settings? Editing registry like outlined here is not the most user friendly way.
This is something I made for myself while testing WMV9AP.
http://microsoftuse.temp.powweb.com/...3beta1-bin.zip

You need .NET 2.0. Open the EXE, go to WMVA Profile Editor and you are good to go from there.

@zambelli,
I was wondering why you call "WMV9 Advanced Profile (WVC1) video codec BETA" in the first post. Isn't WVC1 finalized yet? or are you just calling it beta because WMP11 is beta?

Last edited by McoreD; 18th May 2006 at 03:09.
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Old 18th May 2006, 05:59   #13  |  Link
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Am I right to assume that WMP won't install the automation interfaces so I better wait until updated interfaces are released with the encoder before I consider starting to code.
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Old 18th May 2006, 08:02   #14  |  Link
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Ok for all of you who don't wan't to install WMP 11 but only the updated codecs here we go

1. Download the WMP 11 beta
2. Extract the main .exe
3. now inside the extracted folder you gonna find wmfdist11.exe, execute it.
4. Start WME9 and enjoy the Advanced Profile

@zambelli
Quote:
Microsoft is also actively working on making a standalone WMV9 AP codec package available for download to users who want to test the beta codec but don't want to install the Player beta.
you allready did but you allways try to hold it back whyever M$ likes todo that. In the end everyone here knows why you do it you wan't the installations of WMP 11 as high as possible :P but not everyone is a avg user, so if you lie to us this way you won't make friends here zambelli.

here is a WVC1 example made by Remedy (most probably encoded by the Microsoft Studio staff as they partners) 720p@60 fps 15 Mbps
http://www.alanwake.com/movies.html

Test Results:

First test results show that the new Main Profile is much better now then it was before, especialy in detail preservation but the difference to the new WVC1 i couldn't see that @ 8 mbps for now, gonna try some higher bitrates later source was 1920x1080p@25 fps hmm i can see a slight textural difference looks that the new MP@HL did better here then AP @ this Bitrate. To be Continued...
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Old 18th May 2006, 09:58   #15  |  Link
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Quote:
Q: Does the new Advanced Profile codec have a different FourCC?
A: Yes, it does. In order to differentiate it from SP/MP codec (FourCC: WMV3) and the non-VC1-compliant AP codec (FourCC: WMVA), and avoid issues with legacy decoders, the VC-1 compliant WMV9 Advanced Profile codec uses a new FourCC code: WVC1.
Are these 2 fourcc's for VC1 (WMV3 for SP/MP and WVC1 for AP IIUC) private to Microsoft, or can we expect future implementations of VC1 by other companies to use these fourcc's as well? (Or perhaps both?)

edit: bah i messed up the fourcc for AP...

Last edited by GodofaGap; 18th May 2006 at 10:54.
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Old 18th May 2006, 10:50   #16  |  Link
zambelli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruNcher
you allready did but you allways try to hold it back whyever M$ likes todo that. In the end everyone here knows why you do it you wan't the installations of WMP 11 as high as possible :P but not everyone is a avg user,
?!?!?
Riiiiight. "Forcing" hundred Doom9 users to install WMP11 in order to get WMV9 AP is really going to boost Microsoft's market penetration. I'll go tell the marketing people that the MTV Urge service is a huge waste of time - because clearly the real draw is WMV9 AP.

Cruncher, I don't underestimate anybody on this forum. I know very well you can extract the WMF SDK runtime from the install package. However, you're entirely speculating about our reasons for not endorsing that install scenario. Conspiracy theories are entertaining, but that's not how businesses are run.
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so if you lie to us this way you won't make friends here zambelli.
What has gotten into you? I'm trying to be informative and help you guys get the latest codec, and that makes me a liar? If I say "we're working on making a standalone codec download available", I mean exactly that. The world doesn't revolve around your personal interests. There are Windows Server 2003 customers out there who want WMV9 AP for their streaming needs - WMP11 isn't targeted at W2K3, so we need to figure out an alternative way to provide them with a codec update. These decisions are made for a reason and I assure you they're not the least bit diabolic as you perceive them to be.

P.S. I'm not here to "make friends" and turn people over to Microsoft's products. I've been a member since the forum was started, before I ever worked for MS. The fact that I can now act as a liason between you guys and MS is something that I hope you can appreciate.

Quote:
First test results show that the new Main Profile is much better now then it was before, especialy in detail preservation but the difference to the new WVC1 i couldn't see that @ 8 mbps for now, gonna try some higher bitrates later source was 1920x1080p@25 fps hmm i can see a slight textural difference looks that the new MP@HL did better here then AP @ this Bitrate. To be Continued...
I am very interested in hearing such feedback. That's exactly why the beta is being released publicly.
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Old 18th May 2006, 11:02   #17  |  Link
zambelli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GodofaGap
Are these 2 fourcc's for VC1 (WMV3 for SP/MP and WMVA for AP IIUC) private to Microsoft, or can we expect future implementations of VC1 by other companies to use these fourcc's as well? (Or perhaps both?)
My guess is that 3rd party encoder implementations will want to use the same FourCCs if they're not planning on providing their own decoder implementation. That way they can leverage Microsoft's decoders. However, if they want to force people to use their decoder implementations too, they might use a different 4cc code to avoid filter conflict.

It's difficult to regulate these things. Remember how Canopus had a different 4cc for their DV video, even though it was perfectly compliant with every other DV decoder on the market? We'll see how things turn out for VC-1. Hopefully it won't be a FourCC mess.
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Old 18th May 2006, 13:37   #18  |  Link
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Ok, I feel I am doing something wrong...

I used the clip from this infamous ( ) thread, but comparing PSNR scores WMV9 AP appears to do worse than DivX3 (900 kbps)

I've used Nic's wmenc to encode the file, but the fourcc seems to be WVC1 so that should be ok... visual checking the impression is not that bad I think, but on that partcilar clip in some scenes there is still some blockiness compared to x264.

Zambelli, can you confirm that Nic's wmencoder is using the correct codec?
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Old 18th May 2006, 14:09   #19  |  Link
Sharktooth
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you can compare vc1 to real or xvid...
comparing it with x264 is a bit unfair.
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Old 18th May 2006, 15:21   #20  |  Link
GodofaGap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GodofaGap
Ok, I feel I am doing something wrong...
I forgot to tick VBR.

Still WMV9 AP is way behind DivX or XviD in PSNR score (about 0.5 dB) and even normal WMV9 is a bit better... I still feel I am doing something wrong.

Quote:
you can compare vc1 to real or xvid...
comparing it with x264 is a bit unfair.
I don't know why it would be unfair, but for me it is certainly relevant. Encoding and decoding speed is certainly not any faster than with x264/CoreAVC.
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