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Old 26th April 2006, 13:53   #21  |  Link
bigotti5
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I don't think I will ever use the seamless layer change - it's just too risky ..
As mpucoder stated, seamless layer change requires especially muxing, imo no available authoring soft is capable of doing this
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Old 26th April 2006, 15:52   #22  |  Link
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I gotta find my notes, apparently back in November I knew of an example. There are two issues - seamless and bitrate. Two cells of the same vob will be seamless. You can also join two vobs seamlessly in many authoring programs, including MuxMan 0.17
And being seamless should work in the majority of players. At worst it will still pause while the laser refocuses due to buffer depletion. It won't crash or stop, being seamless makes it easier to play, not harder.
Lowering the mux bitrate helps the buffer depletion problem. Notice this is the mux bitrate, not the combined bitrate, a slightly different aspect of program streams. The normal mux rate is 10.08 and the lower rate for interleaving is 8.0 It may seem as though it wouldn't matter if the combined rate is low there will be less data to handle and the buffers can fill up before the layer change. But the lower mux rate signals to the player that something is going to happen that requires cramming the buffers full (usually angle or story skipping)
Even so, a combined bitrate of 8.0 or less should also work in modern players which have buffers many times larger than the target decoder model.
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Old 26th April 2006, 16:28   #23  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mpucoder
I gotta find my notes, apparently back in November I knew of an example. There are two issues - seamless and bitrate. Two cells of the same vob will be seamless. You can also join two vobs seamlessly in many authoring programs, including MuxMan 0.17
And being seamless should work in the majority of players. At worst it will still pause while the laser refocuses due to buffer depletion. It won't crash or stop, being seamless makes it easier to play, not harder.
Lowering the mux bitrate helps the buffer depletion problem. Notice this is the mux bitrate, not the combined bitrate, a slightly different aspect of program streams. The normal mux rate is 10.08 and the lower rate for interleaving is 8.0 It may seem as though it wouldn't matter if the combined rate is low there will be less data to handle and the buffers can fill up before the layer change. But the lower mux rate signals to the player that something is going to happen that requires cramming the buffers full (usually angle or story skipping)
Even so, a combined bitrate of 8.0 or less should also work in modern players which have buffers many times larger than the target decoder model.
So are you saying if I split a cell in a vob, added the layer break to the new cell and was Able to set the flag to seemless (which you cannot do now with pgcedit on layer breaks) without remuxing it would work better (ie buffer would be full still) on the break or not?
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Old 26th April 2006, 18:04   #24  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jamos
... and was Able to set the flag to seemless (which you cannot do now with pgcedit on layer breaks) ...
If you want to test it, you can set the seamless flag this way: start PgcEdit's burn function, but abort the ISO creation. Change the seamless flag and save. Create the ISO with ImgTool Classic or launch the MakeISO.bat file created by PgcEdit in your %TEMP% directory. However, I'm not sure ImgBurn will let you burn the image without resetting the seamless flag. Also, if you want, I can do a version which doesn't clear the seamless flag on demand.
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Last edited by r0lZ; 26th April 2006 at 18:07.
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Old 26th April 2006, 18:52   #25  |  Link
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That would be really great if you could burn with the seamless flag set, it would answer some questions. And while you are working on that, I am working on another mux directive for MuxMan that will allow changing the mux rate. With both changes we should be able to duplicate what superbit and others are doing.
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Old 26th April 2006, 18:58   #26  |  Link
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Originally Posted by r0lZ
If you want to test it, you can set the seamless flag this way: start PgcEdit's burn function, but abort the ISO creation. Change the seamless flag and save. Create the ISO with ImgTool Classic or launch the MakeISO.bat file created by PgcEdit in your %TEMP% directory. However, I'm not sure ImgBurn will let you burn the image without resetting the seamless flag. Also, if you want, I can do a version which doesn't clear the seamless flag on demand.
I can try this.

Edit: ok I created the iso with no layer break the old layer break set to seemless..

Now I get this when trying to burn with IMGburn


Maybe a modified version of PGCedit that allows both the layer break set and the seemless flag set could be done and sent to me? Then I could try imgburn again.

Last edited by jamos; 26th April 2006 at 19:29.
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Old 26th April 2006, 19:14   #27  |  Link
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Start with a cell or vob that already is seamless. Setting the flag when the mux is not seamless only results in a hang on my Sony players.
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Old 26th April 2006, 19:18   #28  |  Link
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I am working on another mux directive for MuxMan that will allow changing the mux rate. With both changes we should be able to duplicate what superbit and others are doing.
Great - muxman is overtaking scenarist, seamless multistory, seamless layer change, multiangles, seamless b*****......
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Old 26th April 2006, 19:38   #29  |  Link
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Jamos, you're right. You have to change the seamless flag with IfoEdit (w/o Get VTS Sectors!) If you save the modified DVD with PgcEdit, it will recompute the VTS sector pointers as for a single layer DVD.

Anyway, I'll do the modification in PgcEdit...
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Old 26th April 2006, 19:40   #30  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mpucoder
Start with a cell or vob that already is seamless. Setting the flag when the mux is not seamless only results in a hang on my Sony players.
I did pick a seemless cell I think the problem is that pgcedit clears the layer break when I do this.
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Old 26th April 2006, 19:50   #31  |  Link
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Originally Posted by r0lZ
Jamos, you're right. You have to change the seamless flag with IfoEdit (w/o Get VTS Sectors!)
what cell value would I change this to other than 8?

I really think if the flag is anything but 2 or 0 that IMGburn will not work.

Last edited by jamos; 26th April 2006 at 21:12.
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Old 26th April 2006, 21:15   #32  |  Link
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Forget it, and download PgcEdit_winexe_7.0.1_beta1.zip. Change the Seamless LB state in Options -> Input/Output, and create the ISO normally.

However, I'm pretty sure ImgBurn will clear the seamless flag before burning the image. Maybe you have to use the good old DVD Decrypter? PgcEdit should still support DVDD. Just configure it in the burn setup dialog. Or launch it manually, and configure the LB LBA in its setup dialog.

I haven't a DL DVD to test, so, let me know if ImgBurn or DVDD works.
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Old 26th April 2006, 21:24   #33  |  Link
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Just fixed a last minute little bug! If you have already downloaded the beta, please download it again!
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Old 26th April 2006, 22:51   #34  |  Link
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OK burning with decrypter now manually set the layer break to what pgcedit said it was at. When I look at the image with pgcedit (mounted with dameon tools) it shows no layer break.

Last edited by jamos; 26th April 2006 at 22:55.
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Old 26th April 2006, 23:12   #35  |  Link
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Looks like a sucess layer break still marked 8 on finished disk. Though maybe you could show the layer break cell when i reopen it with pgcedit as a 8 with the layer break marked?
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Old 26th April 2006, 23:37   #36  |  Link
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Playback on my Sony Home player is now Flawless at the layer break no pauses or skips with the new disk.

Now the question is: does burning with decrypter and setting the layer break manually do a better job than imgburn and is what is causing the no pause? So I guess I would need to test decrypter with the layer break set to non seamless as in the old PGCedit version to truly test if it is the seamless that is doing this or just decrypter burns layer breaks better than the latest version of imgburn.

p.s. just bought 10 more dual layer disks at newegg

Code:
mkisofs log for DVD 
From: 
DVD-TEXT General Name: ""
Provider ID: "IFOEDIT BY DERROW"
Number of VTS: 1
Output file: 
Volume label: 
Running under windows (OS type: Windows NT)

mkisofs 2.01-bootcd.ru (i686-pc-mingw32)
Layer break is at absolute sector 2077232.  (Offset in L0 is 68576.)
Layer break cell:
2008656: VTST 1 , 1     TTN 1     (4:26:24)     Title 1      Cell  41 (00:08:55.08), V/CID: 5/37
EXPERIMENTAL:  The seamless flag is set on the LB cell!

The pad was 68592 for file VIDEO_TS.IFO
Total translation table size: 0
Total rockridge attributes bytes: 0
Total directory bytes: 4248
Path table size(bytes): 42
4154455 extents written (8114 MB)

ISO created OK.

Last edited by jamos; 27th April 2006 at 00:51.
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Old 27th April 2006, 00:09   #37  |  Link
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Very interesting thread. Might be a bit hit and miss with some players though.

Regards
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Old 27th April 2006, 00:33   #38  |  Link
jamos
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It is not Decrypter, i reburned the same dvd with its layer break set to 0. Small pause at layer break. So it does look like setting the layer break seemless works (at least with my sony homeplayers). Now we just need imgburn to support this type of break
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Old 27th April 2006, 00:34   #39  |  Link
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Originally Posted by blutach
Very interesting thread. Might be a bit hit and miss with some players though.

Regards
try it and see if it works for you, if you have any dual layers blu. Maybe older players will have issues (but they have issues with burned dual layers anyways).

Last edited by jamos; 27th April 2006 at 00:41.
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Old 27th April 2006, 00:36   #40  |  Link
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However, I'm pretty sure ImgBurn will clear the seamless flag before burning the image. Maybe you have to use the good old DVD Decrypter? PgcEdit should still support DVDD. Just configure it in the burn setup dialog. Or launch it manually, and configure the LB LBA in its setup dialog.

I haven't a DL DVD to test, so, let me know if ImgBurn or DVDD works.
Can't you do the same thing with imgburn?

Settings-->Write-->Layer Break--->Change from calculate optimal to User specified.
shouldn't that work the same as DVDD.

P.S.
Do you people think that LUK would be interested in this discussion?

Peace out.
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