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Old 15th April 2006, 20:10   #101  |  Link
rjamorim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirber
I looked at your NoiseChain tool, and the java only "download". How can I make one?
Just run the app from the command line ($ java -jar nchain.jar) and the option to make chains will appear. Basicly, you need to feed it the file that will be turned into a chain and a txt file containing a list of urls, one per line, where each part of the chain will be stored.
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Old 18th April 2006, 19:45   #102  |  Link
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Let's get the ball rolling, shall we?

Quote:
Dear Mr. Amorim:

The letter below was sent on April 12 to Mr. Edwards, but we now understand that you are also responsible for the rarewares.com site. Please understand the urgency of this matter and act to remove the code.

Please acknowledge receipt of this e-mail communication and any action taken.

Thank you,

George Brieger
Levisohn, Berger & Langsam LLP
805 Third Avenue, 19th Floor
New York, New York 10022
Tel: (212) 486-7272 Ext. 311
Fax: (212) 486-0323
www.LLBL.com





April 12, 2006
Subject: Copyright Violation on rarewares.org

Dear Sir or Madam:

This firm represents On2 Technologies Inc. in connection with intellectual property and related matters. On2 owns a proprietary decoder called VP6.2, which has been copied, reverse engineered and posted to and published on your website at

http://www.rarewares.org

On2 has devoted considerable resources and software developer hours on the VP 6.2 project. Based on our client's preliminary comparison of the posted code with VP6.2, there appear to be substantial similarities in design elements and structure. Accordingly, On2's copyright in VP6.2 is infringed. To the extent this is the case, you are in violation of DMCA and provisions of international copyright law.

Moreover, the user licensee that is agreed to when accessing VP 6.2 from On2 Technologies provides, in relevant part, that:

"You may NOT:
1...
2...
3. reverse engineer, de-compile, disassemble, modify, translate, make
any attempt to discover the source code or resources of the Software or
create derivative works based on the Software;"

Accordingly, the person who posted the VP6.2 code on your site breached his agreement with On2 by reverse engineering VP6.2 and posted unlawful content to your site.

We have contacted other websites that were posting our client's code, and the sites immediately removed the code in response to our report.

Therefore, we insist that you immediately remove the code from your website and from all backup maintenance systems and mirror sites available to the public. Your continued dissemination on your website is causing irreparable harm to On2 because any number of unknown parties is likely to download and use the code, and every moment that it is posted is increasing the damages. The damage in this instance is irreparable, and you must remove the code from its site to stop its participation in damaging On2. Time is of the essence.

Should you have any questions, please contact me. Please acknowledge receipt of this e-mail and any action taken by replying to me.

Very truly yours,
LEVISOHN, BERGER & LANGSAM LLP



Peter L. Berger

Peter L. Berger, Esq.
Levisohn, Berger & Langsam LLP
805 Third Avenue, 19th Floor
New York, New York 10022
pberger@LLBL.com
Tel: (212) 486-7272 Ext. 309
Fax: (212) 486-0323
www.LLBL.com

**************************************************************************
Notice: This message is intended only for use by the named addressee and may contain privileged and / or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited: please delete all electronic copies of this message and its attachments, destroy and hard copies you may have created and notify me immediately. Thank You

God, I love living in South America.

The part teat cracked me up the most is the DMCA bit. I'll comment further on this letter (and reply to Herr Berger) later, as I am at work right now. God bless this mess.
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Old 18th April 2006, 19:58   #103  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjamorim
God bless this mess.
I know you love it
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Old 18th April 2006, 23:07   #104  |  Link
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"The damage in this instance is irreparable, and you must remove the code from its site to stop its participation in damaging On2. Time is of the essence."

as i understand its only a DECODER that has been made, would that not make VP6.2 MORE valuable now it can be played back on opensource platforms and/or mac os x? leading more people to adopt it?
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Old 18th April 2006, 23:21   #105  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonzest
as i understand its only a DECODER that has been made, would that not make VP6.2 MORE valuable now it can be played back on opensource platforms and/or mac os x? leading more people to adopt it?
And more patent holder to analyze the code and sue On2. US is well reknown to sue everyone for any reasons
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Old 18th April 2006, 23:30   #106  |  Link
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@rjamorim

Can you put a download counter on the link?
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Old 19th April 2006, 00:04   #107  |  Link
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Based on our client's preliminary comparison of the posted code with VP6.2, there appear to be substantial similarities in design elements and structure. Accordingly, On2's copyright in VP6.2 is infringed.
That last sentence is a complete non sequitur. Similarity does not mean the code was copied, the underlying algorithms will enforce structure.

On2, you are reading this ... if you are reasonably sure the code was copy pasted just come out and say so (or at least let your lawyers known that using sophism reflects poorly on them and you). You will instantly get most people here on your side, me at least.

I know being this harsh might seem ungratefull and biting the hand that feeds us, but you knowingly stuck your hand in a lion's den in the first place I think if you try plain words (ie. don't let the lawyers talk for you) you will find people to be much less confrontational.

Last edited by MfA; 19th April 2006 at 00:10.
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Old 19th April 2006, 01:04   #108  |  Link
rjamorim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirber
@rjamorim

Can you put a download counter on the link?
That would only count how many people downloaded the java app, not the chain itself :/

But a quick glance over apache's logs tells me more than 50 people downloaded it already.
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Old 19th April 2006, 01:09   #109  |  Link
rjamorim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MfA
That last sentence is a complete non sequitur. Similarity does not mean the code was copied, the underlying algorithms will enforce structure.
Hope you don't mind, I'll use these arguments on my reply :B

Here are some more excerpts from it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto's reply
It's actually interesting that you mention the DMCA. As far as I have been told,
the DMCA protects citizens' rights to reverse engineer undocumented routines, as long
as that is meant for interoperability purposes (which is obviously the purpose of the
source codes I'm hosting at my website, as they allow the playback of VP6.2 on such
operating systems that go ignored by On2 as Linux, Mac OS X and, matter of factly,
every single Unix derivative out there). Again as far as I have been told, the DMCA
only prohibits reverse engineering on systems related to copyright protection. As
VP6.2 is obviously no DRM framework, that is not the case.

So, as the law actually permits reverse engineering in the scope used for the
sources hosted at my site, it doesn't matter what your license allows people to do
or not.

Last but not least, there are several cases of reverse engineering for the sake
of interoperability on the net. Obviously the most famous case is FFMPEG, that hosts
reverse engineered sources for Windows Media Audio (they reverse engineered Microsoft,
of all people!), Sorenson Video, QDesign Music Codec, etc.

Then, there is the case of OpenOffice.org, that systematically reverse engineers
the file formats used by Microsoft Office's applications. Up to a few months ago, these
formats were not documented (now they are, as an ECMA RFC)

Last but not least, do you have any way to prove these sources weren't reverse
engineered on a "clean room" setup? As far as I know, that would make it completely legal,
as exemplified by Compaq's pioneer work reverse engineering the IBM PC BIOS and giving
birth to the PC Clone market.

> We have contacted other websites that were posting our client's code, and the sites
> immediately removed the code in response to our report.

Too bad they don't have any legal background to know better.
Quote:
You will instantly get most people here on your side, me at least.
Heck, even I would bring down the downloads if they managed to provide me proof that the code was indeed stolen from them.
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Old 19th April 2006, 05:28   #110  |  Link
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Even if the code did breach the DMCA, would that not only have an effect in the USA? The DMCA does not cover actions outside of the USA.

What there should be a law against is companies knowingly misusing the DMCA as a legal threat.
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Old 19th April 2006, 08:16   #111  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celtic_druid
Even if the code did breach the DMCA, would that not only have an effect in the USA? The DMCA does not cover actions outside of the USA.

What there should be a law against is companies knowingly misusing the DMCA as a legal threat.
celtic you should host it over at Aus ^^
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Old 19th April 2006, 08:56   #112  |  Link
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Who said I wasn't already?
I think Brazil is safer than Australia though. What with our sell out government and all.
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Old 19th April 2006, 12:21   #113  |  Link
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How about sweden? thepiratebay love those kind of letters
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Old 19th April 2006, 12:43   #114  |  Link
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http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/et...CODE.HTM#7-102
Maybe people should start reporting these attorneys? Lying about the DMCA, etc. sounds like a breech of ethics to me.
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Old 19th April 2006, 12:56   #115  |  Link
rjamorim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celtic_druid
http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/et...CODE.HTM#7-102
Maybe people should start reporting these attorneys? Lying about the DMCA, etc. sounds like a breech of ethics to me.
Hrm... interesting

Indeed, I completely disagree with On2's strongarmed attitude so far. "We're not even sure the code is really stolen or illegal in any way, but let's FUD everybody hosting it into deleting, as it would require much less effort than actually providing proofs of illegality"

And I agree that lawyers are getting out of hand. They start waving the DMCA at the smallest situations, as if it was some magical bullet for FUD purposes. Highly unethical attitude.
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Old 19th April 2006, 13:00   #116  |  Link
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hmm the interesting part i find in all this is that On2 appear from that to not know for sure if its stolen code(just saying it looks similar) or reverse engineered.

the use of the "breaking EULA" is also questionable. i mean it is possible to get the dll without installing VP6 and if a person looks hard enough i am sure it could be downloaded from places that dont have an agreement before download either. so in such a case you wouldnt be breaking anything because you didnt agree to anything.

finally when a EULA makes restrictions to rights a countries laws say you actually have wouldnt this put the EULA on questionable legal grounds ? sorry i am not a lawyer but i would find it strange for a bit of text on a web page or in an installer to over-ride actual laws but hey with the ways some countries work nowdays who knows. i would be interested to hear what any third party/unbiased legal eagles has to say on that.

at the moments this is all looking like a big mess. saying they are not lawyers and prefer to be just doing their work rather than running around after this code seems to me to have exploded somewhat in their face. its certainly not winning freinds by sicking the lawyers instead of a personal email. anyone on the ffmpeg dev mailing list will have already seen this aswell.
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Old 19th April 2006, 18:19   #117  |  Link
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Speaking as an engineer I think that it is inconceivable that this code was created as part of some “clever” black box reverse engineering exercise. I am not a lawyer but just so that you know “there appear to be substantial similarities” in this context means that large chucks of code can be matched up and shown to be LINE FOR LINE identical with one of our older source code trees. The author has changed a few variable names etc, but in many cases that is about it.

Also, the code contains references to things that were changed slightly in later versions of the VP6 bitstream (including FLASH 8) which further confirms that it could not possibly have been created by reverse engineering from Flash content.

Finally, as for the damage it causes On2.... Revenue from sales of VP6 continues to contribute significantly to our bottom line. This is a current revenue generating product, so of course we are concerned about the distribution of ripped off / stolen code.

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Old 20th April 2006, 00:12   #118  |  Link
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At this point it's useless to take down the downloads (the code is already floating around on P2Ps too )... but IMHO releasing an official open source free for non commercial use decoder will make no harm to on2, will solve all problems and possibly bring on2 some new *nix customers.

EDIT: Sorry for the confusion. I mixed up free-codecs with rarewares and i thought (from the filename) the file was published on P2Ps. So no worry... it's not there

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Old 20th April 2006, 01:50   #119  |  Link
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On2Tech, in that case Im very sorry for you this happened and I hope rjamorim takes the code down soon.
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Old 20th April 2006, 03:51   #120  |  Link
rjamorim
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On2Tech, in that case Im very sorry for you this happened and I hope rjamorim takes the code down soon.
What, you think I was born yesterday? That's not what I meant when I said I wanted proof.

BTW: Their lawyers didn't reply yet. My reply to their first C&D was sent this morning.
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