Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd December 2015, 17:34   #34461  |  Link
adhara
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by adhara View Post
Thanks,



Question, if I put "activate deinterlacing" off on MadVr, is the display reponsible for doing this stuff ?
I see no différences between on and off regarding this setting.

This will avoid me to add some new filters on my MadVR profiles and I could let my current settings like that...

When you says: "Also, I realize you are likely using image quadrupling at 720p -> 2160p. You could simplify things by disabling image quadrupling and using image doubling + image upscaling instead."

Can you please explain a little more ? How achieve this ?
Same quality ? (I have few 720p videos).

Regards.

PS: here my Jriver settings in terme of video:

Hi Warner306, can you please give a look on my post ?

Two possibilities:

Let my TV doing the deinterlacing stuff
Let MadVr doing it

If MadVr , how to modify your rules ?

Quote:
if (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p"
else if (srcWidth <= 1920) and (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p"

else if (srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920) "1080p"
else if (srcWidth <= 1280) and ((srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p"

else if (srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280) "720p"
else if (srcWidth <= 960) and ((srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p"

else if (srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540) "SD"
Other and myabe the last question is about using 3DLUT (made with Dispcal GUI). Is the calibration measurements must be done with all TV processing off ? (example: Local Dimming, ..) ?

If TV 10 bits compliant, dithering must be set to 8 bits or 10 bits and more during the
adhara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2015, 17:35   #34462  |  Link
adhara
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by adhara View Post
Thanks,



Question, if I put "activate deinterlacing" off on MadVr, is the display reponsible for doing this stuff ?
I see no différences between on and off regarding this setting.

This will avoid me to add some new filters on my MadVR profiles and I could let my current settings like that...

When you says: "Also, I realize you are likely using image quadrupling at 720p -> 2160p. You could simplify things by disabling image quadrupling and using image doubling + image upscaling instead."

Can you please explain a little more ? How achieve this ?
Same quality ? (I have few 720p videos).

Regards.

PS: here my Jriver settings in terme of video:

Hi Warner306, can you please give a look on my post ?

Two possibilities:

Let my TV doing the deinterlacing stuff
Let MadVr doing it

If MadVr , how to modify your rules ?

Quote:
if (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p"
else if (srcWidth <= 1920) and (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p"

else if (srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920) "1080p"
else if (srcWidth <= 1280) and ((srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p"

else if (srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280) "720p"
else if (srcWidth <= 960) and ((srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p"

else if (srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540) "SD"
Other and myabe the last question is about using 3DLUT (made with Dispcal GUI). Is the calibration measurements must be done with all TV processing off ? (example: Local Dimming, ..) ?

If TV 10 bits compliant, dithering must be set to 8 bits or 10 bits and more during the calibration processus ?

regards.
adhara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2015, 18:02   #34463  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
you can't scale an interlaced picture vertikal and than deintelrace it. it's not possible just the chroma scaling to 4:4:4 is already destroying the chroma.

so madVR should handle the deinterlacing.

local dimming results in incorrect results.
the colors are different depending on the zone brightness.

for most accurate results it should be left disable completely.

if you want to use it. i would first try to calibrated with an disabled local dimming and than activated it.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2015, 21:44   #34464  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by adhara View Post
Hi Warner306, can you please give a look on my post ?

Two possibilities:

Let my TV doing the deinterlacing stuff
Let MadVr doing it

If MadVr , how to modify your rules ?



Other and myabe the last question is about using 3DLUT (made with Dispcal GUI). Is the calibration measurements must be done with all TV processing off ? (example: Local Dimming, ..) ?

If TV 10 bits compliant, dithering must be set to 8 bits or 10 bits and more during the calibration processus ?

regards.
I'm told the frame rate after deinterlacing is what is important. Deinterlacing itself should not create the bottleneck.

So, you have to find what frame rates are possible with specific madVR settings. If you can play 25 fps (progressive) content with one profile, that could be a starting point. Everything at this framerate and below should stay under the rendering queue:

(deintFPS <= 25)

A second profile would cover content higher than 25 fps after deinterlacing:

(deintFPS > 25)

Below is an example of integrating the deinterlaced fps and the source resolution:

if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920)) "1080p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth <= 1280) and (srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p25"

if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920)) "1080p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth <= 1280) and (srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p60"

Essentially, you are ignoring the deinterlacing process and focusing instead on the frame rate after deinterlacing. The frame rate after deinterlacing will determine the load placed on madVR. Double the frame rate, for example, and double the load is placed on madVR.

Last edited by Warner306; 3rd December 2015 at 21:55.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2015, 05:00   #34465  |  Link
MysteryX
Soul Architect
 
MysteryX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,559
Lately I'm getting regular crashes with madVR. Attached is a crash report.
Attached Files
File Type: txt madVR - crash report.txt (78.4 KB, 33 views)
MysteryX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2015, 06:49   #34466  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteryX View Post
Lately I'm getting regular crashes with madVR. Attached is a crash report.
Should maybe upload them some place else.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2015, 07:36   #34467  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,127
My issue with the November Windows 10 update was fixed with a driver update.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2015, 16:58   #34468  |  Link
markanini
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 299
I thought upgrading from a 1600x1200 to 1920x1200 monitor alone was causing dropped frames but I guess it's the new AMD driver too. For now I'm enabling 'use 10 bit buffer instead of 16bit' under 'trade quality for performance'. This allows me to use super-xbr75 image doubling and SuperRes x3 for 720p on HD7700.
markanini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2015, 18:58   #34469  |  Link
TheElix
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Like huhn said, madshi can usually tell what's going wrong if you provide him with a crash log. If the automatic submission doesn't work, you can paste the contents of the log into a file by opening the details, then pressing Ctrl + C while the crash log window has focus.

madshi is busy with paid work right now (madVR is something he develops in bursts when money isn't an issue), but I'm sure he'll look into it when he has time.
Thank you for your patient answer. You're absolutely right, what was I thinking.

Madshi, I uploaded log, bug report and DxDiag information in one archive: https://yadi.sk/d/8Y5cl6AAkyp5t
TheElix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2015, 23:31   #34470  |  Link
Uoppi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
1) No, deint=film is what you want. Film means progressive content and madVR can detect what it needs to do to get it.
Thanks! Still some tagging confusion, if I may (they all refer to PAL):

1) Choosing deint=Film, deint=Off or frameRate=25 all look identical to me. But if I use deint=Film, I get several ms worth of performance hit and the OSD says "IVTC", even though, as far as I know, only the repeat flags of the DVD are being ignored. For example in Handbrake, it's "safe" to simply leave deinterlacing off and set fps to 25 when ripping progressive material DVDs. So I'm just struggling to grasp the real world difference between the tags I mentioned

2) In the case of progressive segmented frame material, two consecutive fields should be merged/weaved (whatever the correct term is) into a progressive frame. Again, when using "deint=Film", the OSD reads "IVTC" and 2:2 cadence - does that mean madVR is properly merging the fields? I would have thought the term "IVTC" isn't applicable in this case. At a quick glance at least, the playback appears identical whether I use deint=Film or frameRate=25 (the content within the container is progressive 25 fps).

3) Anyone know which tag to use to get proper PAL speed down? I have some natively progressive 25 fps content, so unfortunately I can't use the global Reclock PAL speed down setting. However, when setting the speed variation in Reclock to 5% and using the tag "frameRate=24p", I also get the pitch tuned down, so I assume I'm doing it right?

Last edited by Uoppi; 4th December 2015 at 23:37.
Uoppi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2015, 06:55   #34471  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
film is right and the MS you see are for your CPU not GPU. IVTC is done on the CPU. you can ignore the IVTC MS.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2015, 15:09   #34472  |  Link
Uoppi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
film is right and the MS you see are for your CPU not GPU. IVTC is done on the CPU. you can ignore the IVTC MS.
But what is the actual difference between deint=Film and deint=Off (or frameRate=n), picture processing-wise (with progressive PAL)? Because I can detect no picture quality difference and both tags result in playback at the correct framerate.

The only thing I can think of is that in this case madVR's IVTC is just detecting cadence and nothing more (?). If that really is the case, I'd much rather use deint=Off because:
a) deint=Film screws up native progressive 30 fps content by displaying it at 24 fps.
b) deint=Film results in ~5 ms of apparently unnecessary performance hit on my already overtaxed Pentium CPU

So, unless I've got the above wrong, there is no pressing need to use deint=Film except with (some) NTSC material for detecting pulldown and cadence?

Last edited by Uoppi; 5th December 2015 at 15:14.
Uoppi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2015, 16:35   #34473  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
not all pal source have matching fields and. and even for your pentium it is nothing. just ignore the number. if it is lower than the refresh interval than every is totally fine.

this algorithm is kind of totally free.

why should you add deint=film on progressive content?
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2015, 21:47   #34474  |  Link
Uoppi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post

why should you add deint=film on progressive content?
Mainly because:
- Using madVR's auto detection on any of its settings, progressive segmented frame videos (from a Canon camcorder) are detected as interlaced and are deinterlaced instead of merging the consecutive fields into progressive frames
- Content I've verified as progressive (going frame by frame) sometimes still gets deinterlaced with madVR's auto detection, regardless of the detection setting

I prefer to tag folders/files manually instead of relying on automatic detection (which I've sometimes found to be unreliable). That's why I'm trying to get my head around the difference between some of the tags.

Like why deint=Off looks exactly the same to me as deint=Film, even when one of them involves "IVTC" according to the OSD and the other one does not (talking only of PAL - with something like 3:2 pulldown they would obviously look different).

I'm paranoid/OCD about getting the picture right (aren't we all here ), so I'd just like to be sure what I'm seeing is actually true. Up until now I thought deint=Off was OK to use because it at least resulted in the correct framerate and looked alright to me. But now I'm as confused as ever.

Last edited by Uoppi; 5th December 2015 at 21:58.
Uoppi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2015, 23:34   #34475  |  Link
DragonQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Mainly because:
- Using madVR's auto detection on any of its settings, progressive segmented frame videos (from a Canon camcorder) are detected as interlaced and are deinterlaced instead of merging the consecutive fields into progressive frames
- Content I've verified as progressive (going frame by frame) sometimes still gets deinterlaced with madVR's auto detection, regardless of the detection setting
This shouldn't matter in most cases since, although deinterlacing may be erroneously enabled, your GPU should notice the cadence and apply weave deinterlacing anyway.
__________________
TV Setup: LG OLED55B7V; Onkyo TX-NR515; ODroid N2+; CoreElec 9.2.7
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2015, 23:39   #34476  |  Link
Georgel
Visual Novel Dev.
 
Georgel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 200
Hello!

I managed to get a crash report from a crash mpc-hc+madvr that has happened. I thank in advance if someone could explain to me what is the problem.

I uploaded the .txt file to my dropbox account.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0fxakdk93w...eport.txt?dl=0

Another thing, I always send my crash reports to mpc-hc automatically, but the crashes only happen when using mpc-hc with madvr, so I really hope that someone can offer me a helping hand. Thanks!
Georgel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2015, 00:18   #34477  |  Link
Uoppi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
This shouldn't matter in most cases since, although deinterlacing may be erroneously enabled, your GPU should notice the cadence and apply weave deinterlacing anyway.
You mean the refresh rate would be doubled, i.e. each progressive frame presented twice, thus looking practically identical to having deinterlacing off? How would I know if the GPU is indeed doing the right thing (I've got an GTX 960 btw) instead of applying the unnecessary and "bad" form of deinterlacing?

I've developed a semi-neurotic habit of checking the madVR OSD on every playback start to see what's happening (or not), to ensure all is well. Tags I can at least always rely upon, although it does require some double-checking too to verify the tag is correct for the material.

No escape from tweaking, I guess!
Uoppi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2015, 11:17   #34478  |  Link
DragonQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
You mean the refresh rate would be doubled, i.e. each progressive frame presented twice, thus looking practically identical to having deinterlacing off? How would I know if the GPU is indeed doing the right thing (I've got an GTX 960 btw) instead of applying the unnecessary and "bad" form of deinterlacing?
Frame stepping.
__________________
TV Setup: LG OLED55B7V; Onkyo TX-NR515; ODroid N2+; CoreElec 9.2.7
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2015, 13:49   #34479  |  Link
Uoppi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
Frame stepping.
OK. So if the GPU is detecting everything properly, progressive 25 fps PAL should never be displayed at a 50 Hz refresh rate? Just asking because 50 Hz is what I'm always getting with progressive segmented frames using madVR's automatic interlace detection. The only way to get proper playback at 25 Hz is using tags.

So, summa summarum, from what I've gathered here, it doesn't hurt anything to always use deint=Film for all progressive PAL content stored in an interlaced-flagged container. I'll be using that then instead of deint=Off.
Uoppi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2015, 14:14   #34480  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 10,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
OK. So if the GPU is detecting everything properly, progressive 25 fps PAL should never be displayed at a 50 Hz refresh rate? Just asking because 50 Hz is what I'm always getting with progressive segmented frames using madVR's automatic interlace detection. The only way to get proper playback at 25 Hz is using tags.

So, summa summarum, from what I've gathered here, it doesn't hurt anything to always use deint=Film for all progressive PAL content stored in an interlaced-flagged container. I'll be using that then instead of deint=Off.
Displays rarely have a progressive 25Hz mode, and instead just offer a 50Hz mode, so there is no practical difference here.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 18:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.