Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 27th April 2017, 01:29   #301  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,512
Another new version! I need to stop all this traveling!

Awesome news.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2017, 07:16   #302  |  Link
cyber201
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 19
@Asmodian
Yes, i need 10bit because 4k HDR files are in 10bit.
cyber201 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2017, 13:32   #303  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,866
that's not how it works.there are nearly no true 10 bit displays out there. and 8 bit is fine.

if you take heavy compression and dithering into account than 10 bit isn't worth much for presentation but a lot for the compression.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2017, 17:13   #304  |  Link
XMonarchY
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 435
Is it possible to take screenshots in madVR in Exclusive FullScreen Mode?
__________________
3770K @ 4.8Ghz | P8Z77-V Pro | Corsair 16GB @ 2200Mhz | GTX 1080 @ 2100Mhz | Samsung 830 256GB & 850 EVO 500GB | WD Black 2TB | Corsair AX 850W | Eizo Foris FG2421 @ Turbo 240 | Xonar DGX | Windows 10
XMonarchY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2017, 17:54   #305  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,866
there are ways to do that but this can easily cause playback issues.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2017, 23:59   #306  |  Link
XMonarchY
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
there are ways to do that but this can easily cause playback issues.
As long as it does not mess with Stats Info and the issue goes away after you restart the player or even PC - I am all for it, otherwise I will have to take photos...
__________________
3770K @ 4.8Ghz | P8Z77-V Pro | Corsair 16GB @ 2200Mhz | GTX 1080 @ 2100Mhz | Samsung 830 256GB & 850 EVO 500GB | WD Black 2TB | Corsair AX 850W | Eizo Foris FG2421 @ Turbo 240 | Xonar DGX | Windows 10
XMonarchY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2017, 00:18   #307  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,512
I don't know how and even if you can causing playback issues would mess with the stats info so photos might be the best option...
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2017, 16:18   #308  |  Link
Mainge
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2
Hello Asmodian
I have a question, which I hope is not too stupid.
I just built a new PC with GTX1070 AMP Extrem. With all that new power, I can finally use MadVR has it should and I put the highest possible settings that my GPU can take (NGU sharp very high for Luma and so on). In addition, I also put direct supersampling on always doubling and I even tried direct quadrupling.

For information, I almost only watch 1080p source on 1080p display, which is what leads to my question.

In some of your posts, I could see that you don't recommand to supersample when source matches the display.
Should I really remove supersampling option? What is the downside of Upscaling to 2160p and then downscaling to get back to 1080p? I honestly thought this was the way to go in order to get super picture quality.

I am the type to put the options on the highest level when I can, but I know it can be totally wrong to do that...

Thanks in advance for your feedback.
Mainge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2017, 22:55   #309  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,512
Updated for madVR v0.91.10.

Added a description for a new option for the deep hack in Direct3D to enable true 24 Hz and 60 Hz modes in Windows 8.1 and 10. This option used to be always enabled but it sometimes causes the presentation queues to not fill.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th June 2017, 09:06   #310  |  Link
nsnhd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 29
By playing some hdr files and switch on madVR OSD, some files show "matrix BT.709, primaries BT.2020" and others show both "matrix & primaries BT.2020".
What that means and what's the difference ?
nsnhd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th June 2017, 23:30   #311  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,512
Matrix is the set of weights used to covert YCbCr data to RGB and primaries are the color of 100% Red, Green, and Blue. You can think of the matrix as the way to covert to RGB and primaries as the gamut of the RGB space once the YCbCr has been converted.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2017, 00:29   #312  |  Link
nsnhd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Matrix is the set of weights used to covert YCbCr data to RGB and primaries are the color of 100% Red, Green, and Blue. You can think of the matrix as the way to covert to RGB and primaries as the gamut of the RGB space once the YCbCr has been converted.
So, if matrix is BT.709 then is the file a real HDR one, or just a SDR with garmut BT.2020 added ?
nsnhd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2017, 01:10   #313  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,512
There are a lot of real HDR videos with BT.709 matrix, it is simply the values used to multiply Y, Cb, and Cr by (while summing the results) in order to calculate R, G, and B. Mastering happens in RGB (YCbCr data is not even viewable as a color image) and as long as you use the correct inverse matrix when converting from YCbCr as you did when converting to it you get the same RGB values back.

The primaries are the important thing, anything with BT.2020 or DCI-P3 primaries could be real HDR, but you cannot tell from just that. How it was mastered and the other metadata is also important, but the matrix used to convert to YCbCr isn't. There will be differences in the rounding errors when converting between RGB and YCbCr with a different matrix; BT.2020 is probably theoretically better for 10+ bit HDR content for some reason(?), but not noticeably so.
__________________
madVR options explained

Last edited by Asmodian; 12th June 2017 at 01:19. Reason: reordered sentences
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2017, 07:15   #314  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,512
Updated for madVR v0.91.11. I only added some extra description of the current state of HDR support in Windows 10 and a link to madshi's detailed description. I updated my settings.bin as well.

This version was mostly fixes for HDR support.
__________________
madVR options explained

Last edited by Asmodian; 30th July 2017 at 20:45.
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2017, 07:49   #315  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainge View Post
Hello Asmodian
I have a question, which I hope is not too stupid.
I just built a new PC with GTX1070 AMP Extrem. With all that new power, I can finally use MadVR has it should and I put the highest possible settings that my GPU can take (NGU sharp very high for Luma and so on). In addition, I also put direct supersampling on always doubling and I even tried direct quadrupling.

For information, I almost only watch 1080p source on 1080p display, which is what leads to my question.

In some of your posts, I could see that you don't recommand to supersample when source matches the display.
Should I really remove supersampling option? What is the downside of Upscaling to 2160p and then downscaling to get back to 1080p? I honestly thought this was the way to go in order to get super picture quality.

I am the type to put the options on the highest level when I can, but I know it can be totally wrong to do that...

Thanks in advance for your feedback.
I am not sure why I missed your post, I am sorry for that.

I don't like pure supersampling, it tends to introduce the minor artifacts that are the result of any scaling technique without any benefit. At best even NGU upscaling looks basically like the source after downscaling to the source resolution again. The source was probably downscaled from a higher resolution when it was mastered after all and even NGU upscaling isn't going to improve it beyond that original high resolution master.

The only case where I might use supersampling was if I was using strong upscaling refinements and I liked the look better than simply using image enhancements.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2017, 09:35   #316  |  Link
Mainge
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I am not sure why I missed your post, I am sorry for that.

I don't like pure supersampling, it tends to introduce the minor artifacts that are the result of any scaling technique without any benefit. At best even NGU upscaling looks basically like the source after downscaling to the source resolution again. The source was probably downscaled from a higher resolution when it was mastered after all and even NGU upscaling isn't going to improve it beyond that original high resolution master.

The only case where I might use supersampling was if I was using strong upscaling refinements and I liked the look better than simply using image enhancements.
Thank you for your answer! Everything you said makes sense, I didn't know that the source is usually downscaled from higher resolution, you learn everyday :-)
So I think I'll remove this supersampling and try to play with Image enhancement instead of Upscaling refinements.

Thanks again!
Mainge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2017, 06:50   #317  |  Link
Manni
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 183
Hi Asmodian,

Great thread, thanks for this work.

I have a couple of questions:

1) I just got a 1080 TI (EVGA cs2) like yourself so I'm going to take a look at your settings.bin. I'm coming from an AMD HD7870 and all my settings were optimized for a much less powerful AMD GPU. Do you have a profile for 3D in your settings?

2) One thing I'm not sure about, I set LAV HW acceleration to none because my understanding is that in that case MadVR is handling everything, not using the GPU h/w acceleration. For a max quality result, is it what I should use, or is there no drawback using DXVA2 copyback?

3) I'm abroad at the moment and had issues when I first tested with 3D (using mk3D files made with makemkv from my 3D Blurays). AMD handles 3D automatically while nVidia needs to enable 3D in the OS. I don't want 3D on al the time, especially when playing 2D video, so what's the right combination to use in the nVidia control panel settings and in MadVR to get 3D enabled automatically when playing 3D, and disabled afterwards? I tried the option to restore the OS setting but the switch back and forth in and out of 3D wasn't working 100% of the time.

In case it matters I set the resolution to UHD to upscale 2D blurays, but not 3D blurays. My display is a JVC rs500 projector. I play most of my UHD Bluray / HDR content with my Pana UB900, so will play with HDR when the nVidia HDR bug in FSE will be fixed (as we need FSE for 10bits, the JVC supports 12bits from the input to the panels).

Until we can get legt UHD Bluray content onto HTPC, my main use of MadVR is 2D/3D bluray playback (film mostly).

Thanks!
__________________
Win 10 Pro x64 MCE add-on
i7 3770K@4.2Ghz 16Gb@2.1Ghz EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC2 11Gb@2GHz 385.28 RGB Full 4:4:4 12bits
MPC-BE / LAV / MadVR / MyMovies 5.24 PR2
Denon X7200WA to JVC RS500/X7000
Manni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2017, 07:18   #318  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,512
1) I do not have 3D profiles configured, 3D is actually disabled in my settings.bin. I do have a 3D display but I have not used 3D in a few years and I have not tested it at all. Sorry. I might test it again if people are interested but I thought it wasn't harder to display than 1080p60?

2) DXVA2 copyback offers the same quality video as software decoding but software can sometimes handle oddities better and/or is more responsive. Personally I use DXVA2 copyback only for UHD. Playing UHD HEVC or AVC takes too much cpu power and Pascal GPU's hardware decoding is very capable.

3) Note my answer to 1; sorry but I don't have any recent experiance with 3D playback with madVR. Hopefully someone else will offer some advice.

You actually do not need FSE for 10-bit anymore if you enable Windows' HDR mode. That said 10-bit is not important due to madVR's high quality dithering. Have you done any tests of 10-bit v.s. 8-bit output? I have never seen any differences with dithering enabled (it should never be disabled) on any 10-bit displays I have tested it on. 10-bit or higher is very beneficial for compression and processing but not for the final display, assuming good dithering is done. If you don't have to sacrifice anything for it 10-bit is good but once you start making any sacrifices you would probably be better off using 8-bit instead.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2017, 08:24   #319  |  Link
Manni
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
1) I do not have 3D profiles configured, 3D is actually disabled in my settings.bin. I do have a 3D display but I have not used 3D in a few years and I have not tested it at all. Sorry. I might test it again if people are interested but I thought it wasn't harder to display than 1080p60?

2) DXVA2 copyback offers the same quality video as software decoding but software can sometimes handle oddities better and/or is more responsive. Personally I use DXVA2 copyback only for UHD. Playing UHD HEVC or AVC takes too much cpu power and Pascal GPU's hardware decoding is very capable.

3) Note my answer to 1; sorry but I don't have any recent experiance with 3D playback with madVR. Hopefully someone else will offer some advice.

You actually do not need FSE for 10-bit anymore if you enable Windows' HDR mode. That said 10-bit is not important due to madVR's high quality dithering. Have you done any tests of 10-bit v.s. 8-bit output? I have never seen any differences with dithering enabled (it should never be disabled) on any 10-bit displays I have tested it on. 10-bit or higher is very beneficial for compression and processing but not for the final display, assuming good dithering is done. If you don't have to sacrifice anything for it 10-bit is good but once you start making any sacrifices you would probably be better off using 8-bit instead.
Thanks for the quick reply.

Don't worry about 3D settings, I'll sort it out when I'm back. I don't know how it compares to 1080p60, as I almost always use 1080p23, but I do know that I had to create a specific profile to get it to work on my HD7870, as my 1080p23 settings were too taxing.

Re 10bits, I did some testing and the difference is minimal. It's more for a "peace of mind" than a true PQ aspect. I don't want to use the OS HDR setting as it means I would be in HDR all the time, which I don't want. I want to use the nVidia dynamic switching mode as soon as the driver is fixed.

I need to try FSE with the 1080 Ti, I didn't use it (except when testing HDR) with the HD7870 as my JVC needed 15sec or more to sync, especially when using OSD, so I found the improvement in PQ wasn't worth the downside. However, my HD7870 had no frame drop for 2 hours+, while the 1080 Ti has frame drops every 3-5mn (with rendering times way below 30ms in 23p), so I might have to use FSE anyway.

I'll update here when I'm back and have had some time to play with the 1080 Ti more. I only had a couple of hours to test it before going on holiday.
__________________
Win 10 Pro x64 MCE add-on
i7 3770K@4.2Ghz 16Gb@2.1Ghz EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC2 11Gb@2GHz 385.28 RGB Full 4:4:4 12bits
MPC-BE / LAV / MadVR / MyMovies 5.24 PR2
Denon X7200WA to JVC RS500/X7000
Manni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th August 2017, 00:40   #320  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,512
After acquiring a new display (LG OLED 55" C7P) I changed my settings a lot. This OLED TV does not like NGU Sharp at all, even bluray 1080p looks artificial when using it, but NGU Anti-Alias is very natural and looks great. I also do not use the ED dithering options with it; I was unable to see any differences with ED dithering, ordered dithering is faster and offers identical quality on this display.

I was surprised by the similarity calibrating this OLED TV to my plasma TV from 2010. The both dither a lot to display shadows as well, they seem to be oddly similar technologies.

settings.bin updated.
__________________
madVR options explained

Last edited by Asmodian; 13th August 2017 at 00:42.
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.