HELP! Mono dts-hd master!

ramicio · 12th August 2010, 21:04

I am trying to decode a Mono DTS-HD Master file. I have tried a bunch of crap. With eac3to and the Arcsoft filter, it spits out an error. It is version 1.1.0.7. I found "Sonic Cineplayer HD-DVD Decoder 4.3" and installed that. It shows up in eac3to, decodes the file, but writes nothing. If I use graphedit with the sonic decoder, it only decodes the core, so it's gotta be doing the same with eac3to. I want to decode this file lossless! I also tried the DTS Master Audio Suite software and player, which didn't even open. What am I to do?

nurbs · 12th August 2010, 22:20

Cant help you, but out of interest what's the cores bitrate? 1.5 Mbps like with the 5.1 tracks or less?

ramicio · 12th August 2010, 22:22

768 kbps

nurbs · 12th August 2010, 22:28

Then just take the core. 768 kbps would be the bitrate of 16 bit 48 kHz mono PCM. I doubt any perceivable quality was lost by encoding to DTS.

ramicio · 12th August 2010, 22:49

I don't want the core. It is lossy. I am a person who has all my music collection in FLAC. Any movie I transcode from blu-ray with DTS-HD Master I make into FLAC.

rik1138 · 13th August 2010, 01:54

You have access to the DTS Master Audio encoder? Try this:
Create a silent mono WAV file the same duration as the file you are trying to decode.
Use the DTS software to encode that WAV file into DTS-HD MA.
Copy the first 140 bytes of that new file, and paste them on to the beginning of the DTS file you are trying to decode (using a hex editor or something).

In theory, you should now be able to load the file into DTS Player and export the WAV files.
Removing this header information is a sort of copy protection implemented by DTS to prevent people from being able to decode the lossless format back into WAV/PCM files. I have no idea if creating a fake header like that will work, but I can't really think of a reason why it wouldn't... The header does have the duration in it, so it's possible if that's exact to the frame, it will give you some error... (Or, decode the core DTS to WAV, and encode that with the DTS software, that should give you a more accurate header to stick on the real lossless file.)

Worth a shot though, I suppose. I'm getting the same error with eac3to trying to decode a mono DTS-HD MA file.

ramicio · 13th August 2010, 02:51

I just made a file out of the same spec and length wav. Eac3to won't even detect it. In a hex editor the header is wayy shorter, and has a crapload of empty space! Well the file I am trying to rip in the first place won't even open with the DTS-HD Master Suite tools, says it's DTS Express. This file is a huge mess! I'm beginning to think a receiver wouldn't even decode this stream as master!

Update: I extracted the core, and tried decoding it with the Arcsoft decoder, and it didn't like the core. Same error as the master file. I am on version 1.1.0.7. Is there a newer version out there I can try?

rik1138 · 13th August 2010, 07:37

Wait, hold on... A file encoded straight from the DTS-HD MA encoder will _not_ work with eac3to, the author of eac3to never programmed it to work with raw files, only files demuxed from a Blu-ray disc.

Apparently eac3to (or the ArcSoft decoder) can't handle mono DTS-HD MA. BUT, the DTS player _can_ play it back, and extract it to WAV files. But the player won't play a file ripped from the disc (as the authoring process strips off that 140 byte header).

So, what you need to do is create a file that the DTS Player can recognize (sounds like the DTS Player is your only option to get a lossless file).

So, take the first 140 bytes of the new file you just encoded, and paste them on the head of the file you ripped from the Blu-ray (thus, making that file 140 bytes larger in size).

Then, try playing that file (the original DTS with the new 140 bytes tacked on at the beginning) in the DTS Player software and see if it likes it. If it does, there's an option there somewhere for saving out the original WAV/PCM file...

It's a hack job, and I've never tried it, so it may not work... But thought I'd suggest since you obviously have access to the tools. This stripping of the header was done deliberately by DTS and the Blu-ray group for the sole purpose of making it difficult to restore lossless WAV files from the DTS-HD MA track. And, using the 'official' tools, it works. The DTS software will not recognize a ripped DTS-HD MA as lossless audio, that's by design.

ramicio · 13th August 2010, 13:42

Libav handled the mono dts core just fine. Arcsoft couldn't even handle the core lossy mono dts. Total media theatre couldn't even play the sound when I played the disc! I don't even know how to copy and paste hex data of a certain range. The headers aren't even the same size. The studio did something creative to make this file. The suite software does recognize the file, as a DTS Express file. The bad file has a correct header that eac3to likes, the Arcsoft filter just doesn't like mono. It doesn't even like the header of an authored file, so I don't see how any of this will work to rip my audio.

rik1138 · 13th August 2010, 19:21

Everything you've said is expected. When you author a DTS-HD MA file unto a Blu-ray disc, the first 140 bytes of the file a deliberately removed. It's not possible to rip a Blu-ray disc and get the exact same file that use in authoring. It's part of the copy protection built into DTS. None of the DTS Master Audio suite programs will do anything with a DTS file ripped from a Blu-ray disc, they will always report incorrectly (as an Express file, or not even recognize it at all).

I assume you are using a hex editor to view the files? You should be able to select/copy the first 140 bytes of the file you encoded, and then paste them to the beginning of the file you ripped and save out a new file 140 bytes larger. I know the headers are a different size, that's what you have to fix if you want to try the DTS Player to decode the audio.

Apparently ArcSoft has a major bug in their DTS decoder that can't play back mono DTS files. That's going to prevent eac3to from working at all I assume...

How long is your audio file? I can try to create a dummy header for you that would be easier to attach if you aren't familiar with hex editing...

ramicio · 13th August 2010, 20:13

It is 1:38:17. I have given up. NOTHING is going to decode this file's original lossless data to a wav file. The only thing that would work is to find a receiver with a decoder chip that outputs PCM and somehow capture that data by a computer. That is more trouble than this is worth. I'm not familiar with hex editing, and I cannot grasp the concept of hex when computers are really 0s and 1s. The only hope is that Arcsoft will fix their encoder, but I doubt they will because there are less than a handful of titles with mono audio tracks. I saw on their forum someone a while ago mentioned another title that was a mono DTS-HDMa that wouldn't decode, and there were 0 replies. It's pretty sad, because I thought just like THX, something has to be certified and to meet certain requirements to say they can decode something and use the DTS logo.

rik1138 · 13th August 2010, 21:42

BTW, what title is it?
You could always contact DTS and tell them how disappointed you are that they allow ArcSoft to put their logo on a product when it doesn't work. DTS would _not_ be happy to hear that their audio format is not working in a player, that looks bad for them. I have a couple of contacts there, I'll test the ArcSoft with some mono encodes and prod them with the results.

In the mean time, I'll try something that should be an easy test for you, don't delete the ripped DTS file yet!

ramicio · 13th August 2010, 21:53

The m2ts file is going nowhere, I can always re-rip the audio. It is "National Lampoon's Vacation" that came out this year. The movie from the thread on the Arcsoft forum the other person had a problem with was "The Crazies" on blu-ray.

rik1138 · 13th August 2010, 21:59

Okay, try this:
Download the little attachment I've posted and unzip it.
Place it in the same fold as the DTS stream from the title you are working with
Open a command prompt, and navigate to the folder with the two files, and then type this:
copy header.dts+YourFile.dtshd NewFile.dtshd
Obviously 'YourFile.dtshd' should be the file name of the DTS file you ripped.
It will create a new file that should be exactly 140 bytes larger than the ripped DTS track. Now, see if the DTS Player application will recognize it.

I'm not sure it will work, but I figure it's worth a try...

http://forum.doom9.org/attachment.ph...6&d=1281733146

ramicio · 13th August 2010, 22:03

I'm still wondering what this header has to do with anything? It will not help me decode this dts file into a wav. It will only let me play it. And the player that comes with the DTS Suite does in fact play the file, I think. I can't remember, I only did it once. I will have to check later today. I just can't perform any splicing or trimming functions on it.

rik1138 · 13th August 2010, 23:34

The header allows you to open it in the DTS Player software (and recognize that it's a DTS-HD MA mono lossless audio). The Player software has an option to save out the source file as .WAV

That's how you get your lossless WAV file, the DTS software itself can do it, but it needs a valid header on the file. DTS Master Audio is meant to be a studio archival format for storing lossless audio (as well as Blu-ray uses), so they also provide the tool to reverse the process.

And, with the header (if it works), you will be able to import the file into Stream Tools to edit/trim/whatever... It should recognize it as a DTS-HD MA lossless mono track. (Again, if it works...)

ramicio · 13th August 2010, 23:36

Wow, what player is this? The player that came with the suite showed no such option. It seems like it's going to take forever for them to approve that attachment. Care to email it to me? timramich@gmail.com

OH MY GOD I found it. It's under the playlist!

rik1138 · 14th August 2010, 00:04

Try the link right above the attachment, I think that will work. I'll Email too, just in case.

Yeah, DTS provides handy tools, you just have to get their software to recognize the file!

Rik

ramicio · 14th August 2010, 00:19

Well it worked, kind of. It only decodes 1:12:56 though.

ramicio · 14th August 2010, 00:59

Well I finally got it! I tried decoding the core into a wav file just to make a DTS-HD Master file with the proper header for the time (it could be silence for all the encoder cares.) Well this software screws timings up big time. I only got 1:36:39 out of it on the PCM decode. So I just stretched the file to 1:50:00 and encoded that, then copied that header to the beginning of the ripped file, and ripped away. Success! I just figured it would either stop where it was supposed to or give an unexpected end of file error, but no error, it just stopped where it was supposed to. I think this thread could be informative to people in the future. Thank you very much, Rik! You are a genius!

BTW for you naysayers on quality...The new flac file is 62.6% its original size. The flac made from the lossy core (only 16-bit mind you) is 43.5%! Much more quality and actual sound information to fill a file with. If I was to take a studio music rip that is 24/192, they are usually around 40-50% when losslessly compressed. If I took that original PCM and resampled it down to 24/96 and compressed it losslessly, I would get a much higher number, usually 60-70%. This just shows that lossy is crap!

I am such a fanatic about audio quality that I do not or will not get a surround sound system as cool as it may be. I don't like the effect rooms acoustically apply to sound. For me it's more worthwhile to listen through headphones. What I do with all 5.1 Lossless tracks is split them up into wavs. Then in Goldwave I make a new blank wav file that is 24-bits/96khz. I mix the center and LFE into both channels, 0 dB. Then I select the left channel, and mix the front left and surround left into there, 0 dB, and I do the same for the right side. Of course with all those mixed in the levels are clipped, but Goldwave saves what you are editing in floating point

So I just find the maximum peak, and take that much volume off minus 0.01 dB. Save, and compress with flac!

12th August 2010, 21:04	#1 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	HELP! Mono dts-hd master! I am trying to decode a Mono DTS-HD Master file. I have tried a bunch of crap. With eac3to and the Arcsoft filter, it spits out an error. It is version 1.1.0.7. I found "Sonic Cineplayer HD-DVD Decoder 4.3" and installed that. It shows up in eac3to, decodes the file, but writes nothing. If I use graphedit with the sonic decoder, it only decodes the core, so it's gotta be doing the same with eac3to. I want to decode this file lossless! I also tried the DTS Master Audio Suite software and player, which didn't even open. What am I to do?

13th August 2010, 02:51	#7 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	I just made a file out of the same spec and length wav. Eac3to won't even detect it. In a hex editor the header is wayy shorter, and has a crapload of empty space! Well the file I am trying to rip in the first place won't even open with the DTS-HD Master Suite tools, says it's DTS Express. This file is a huge mess! I'm beginning to think a receiver wouldn't even decode this stream as master! Update: I extracted the core, and tried decoding it with the Arcsoft decoder, and it didn't like the core. Same error as the master file. I am on version 1.1.0.7. Is there a newer version out there I can try? Last edited by ramicio; 13th August 2010 at 03:14.

13th August 2010, 07:37	#8 \| Link
rik1138 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: LA Posts: 620	Wait, hold on... A file encoded straight from the DTS-HD MA encoder will _not_ work with eac3to, the author of eac3to never programmed it to work with raw files, only files demuxed from a Blu-ray disc. Apparently eac3to (or the ArcSoft decoder) can't handle mono DTS-HD MA. BUT, the DTS player _can_ play it back, and extract it to WAV files. But the player won't play a file ripped from the disc (as the authoring process strips off that 140 byte header). So, what you need to do is create a file that the DTS Player can recognize (sounds like the DTS Player is your only option to get a lossless file). So, take the first 140 bytes of the new file you just encoded, and paste them on the head of the file you ripped from the Blu-ray (thus, making that file 140 bytes larger in size). Then, try playing that file (the original DTS with the new 140 bytes tacked on at the beginning) in the DTS Player software and see if it likes it. If it does, there's an option there somewhere for saving out the original WAV/PCM file... It's a hack job, and I've never tried it, so it may not work... But thought I'd suggest since you obviously have access to the tools. This stripping of the header was done deliberately by DTS and the Blu-ray group for the sole purpose of making it difficult to restore lossless WAV files from the DTS-HD MA track. And, using the 'official' tools, it works. The DTS software will not recognize a ripped DTS-HD MA as lossless audio, that's by design. Last edited by rik1138; 13th August 2010 at 07:39.

13th August 2010, 20:13	#11 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	It is 1:38:17. I have given up. NOTHING is going to decode this file's original lossless data to a wav file. The only thing that would work is to find a receiver with a decoder chip that outputs PCM and somehow capture that data by a computer. That is more trouble than this is worth. I'm not familiar with hex editing, and I cannot grasp the concept of hex when computers are really 0s and 1s. The only hope is that Arcsoft will fix their encoder, but I doubt they will because there are less than a handful of titles with mono audio tracks. I saw on their forum someone a while ago mentioned another title that was a mono DTS-HDMa that wouldn't decode, and there were 0 replies. It's pretty sad, because I thought just like THX, something has to be certified and to meet certain requirements to say they can decode something and use the DTS logo. Last edited by ramicio; 13th August 2010 at 20:17.

13th August 2010, 21:53	#13 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	The m2ts file is going nowhere, I can always re-rip the audio. It is "National Lampoon's Vacation" that came out this year. The movie from the thread on the Arcsoft forum the other person had a problem with was "The Crazies" on blu-ray. Last edited by ramicio; 13th August 2010 at 21:55.

12th August 2010, 22:20	#2 \| Link
nurbs Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,460	Cant help you, but out of interest what's the cores bitrate? 1.5 Mbps like with the 5.1 tracks or less?

12th August 2010, 22:22	#3 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	768 kbps

12th August 2010, 22:28	#4 \| Link
nurbs Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,460	Then just take the core. 768 kbps would be the bitrate of 16 bit 48 kHz mono PCM. I doubt any perceivable quality was lost by encoding to DTS.

12th August 2010, 22:49	#5 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	I don't want the core. It is lossy. I am a person who has all my music collection in FLAC. Any movie I transcode from blu-ray with DTS-HD Master I make into FLAC.

13th August 2010, 01:54	#6 \| Link
rik1138 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: LA Posts: 620	You have access to the DTS Master Audio encoder? Try this: Create a silent mono WAV file the same duration as the file you are trying to decode. Use the DTS software to encode that WAV file into DTS-HD MA. Copy the first 140 bytes of that new file, and paste them on to the beginning of the DTS file you are trying to decode (using a hex editor or something). In theory, you should now be able to load the file into DTS Player and export the WAV files. Removing this header information is a sort of copy protection implemented by DTS to prevent people from being able to decode the lossless format back into WAV/PCM files. I have no idea if creating a fake header like that will work, but I can't really think of a reason why it wouldn't... The header does have the duration in it, so it's possible if that's exact to the frame, it will give you some error... (Or, decode the core DTS to WAV, and encode that with the DTS software, that should give you a more accurate header to stick on the real lossless file.) Worth a shot though, I suppose. I'm getting the same error with eac3to trying to decode a mono DTS-HD MA file.

13th August 2010, 13:42	#9 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	Libav handled the mono dts core just fine. Arcsoft couldn't even handle the core lossy mono dts. Total media theatre couldn't even play the sound when I played the disc! I don't even know how to copy and paste hex data of a certain range. The headers aren't even the same size. The studio did something creative to make this file. The suite software does recognize the file, as a DTS Express file. The bad file has a correct header that eac3to likes, the Arcsoft filter just doesn't like mono. It doesn't even like the header of an authored file, so I don't see how any of this will work to rip my audio.

13th August 2010, 19:21	#10 \| Link
rik1138 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: LA Posts: 620	Everything you've said is expected. When you author a DTS-HD MA file unto a Blu-ray disc, the first 140 bytes of the file a deliberately removed. It's not possible to rip a Blu-ray disc and get the exact same file that use in authoring. It's part of the copy protection built into DTS. None of the DTS Master Audio suite programs will do anything with a DTS file ripped from a Blu-ray disc, they will always report incorrectly (as an Express file, or not even recognize it at all). I assume you are using a hex editor to view the files? You should be able to select/copy the first 140 bytes of the file you encoded, and then paste them to the beginning of the file you ripped and save out a new file 140 bytes larger. I know the headers are a different size, that's what you have to fix if you want to try the DTS Player to decode the audio. Apparently ArcSoft has a major bug in their DTS decoder that can't play back mono DTS files. That's going to prevent eac3to from working at all I assume... How long is your audio file? I can try to create a dummy header for you that would be easier to attach if you aren't familiar with hex editing...

13th August 2010, 21:42	#12 \| Link
rik1138 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: LA Posts: 620	BTW, what title is it? You could always contact DTS and tell them how disappointed you are that they allow ArcSoft to put their logo on a product when it doesn't work. DTS would _not_ be happy to hear that their audio format is not working in a player, that looks bad for them. I have a couple of contacts there, I'll test the ArcSoft with some mono encodes and prod them with the results. In the mean time, I'll try something that should be an easy test for you, don't delete the ripped DTS file yet!

13th August 2010, 22:03	#15 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	I'm still wondering what this header has to do with anything? It will not help me decode this dts file into a wav. It will only let me play it. And the player that comes with the DTS Suite does in fact play the file, I think. I can't remember, I only did it once. I will have to check later today. I just can't perform any splicing or trimming functions on it.

13th August 2010, 23:34	#16 \| Link
rik1138 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: LA Posts: 620	The header allows you to open it in the DTS Player software (and recognize that it's a DTS-HD MA mono lossless audio). The Player software has an option to save out the source file as .WAV That's how you get your lossless WAV file, the DTS software itself can do it, but it needs a valid header on the file. DTS Master Audio is meant to be a studio archival format for storing lossless audio (as well as Blu-ray uses), so they also provide the tool to reverse the process. And, with the header (if it works), you will be able to import the file into Stream Tools to edit/trim/whatever... It should recognize it as a DTS-HD MA lossless mono track. (Again, if it works...)

13th August 2010, 23:36	#17 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	Wow, what player is this? The player that came with the suite showed no such option. It seems like it's going to take forever for them to approve that attachment. Care to email it to me? timramich@gmail.com OH MY GOD I found it. It's under the playlist! Last edited by ramicio; 14th August 2010 at 00:03.

14th August 2010, 00:04	#18 \| Link
rik1138 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: LA Posts: 620	Try the link right above the attachment, I think that will work. I'll Email too, just in case. Yeah, DTS provides handy tools, you just have to get their software to recognize the file! Rik

14th August 2010, 00:19	#19 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	Well it worked, kind of. It only decodes 1:12:56 though.

14th August 2010, 00:59	#20 \| Link
ramicio Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PA, US Posts: 683	Well I finally got it! I tried decoding the core into a wav file just to make a DTS-HD Master file with the proper header for the time (it could be silence for all the encoder cares.) Well this software screws timings up big time. I only got 1:36:39 out of it on the PCM decode. So I just stretched the file to 1:50:00 and encoded that, then copied that header to the beginning of the ripped file, and ripped away. Success! I just figured it would either stop where it was supposed to or give an unexpected end of file error, but no error, it just stopped where it was supposed to. I think this thread could be informative to people in the future. Thank you very much, Rik! You are a genius! BTW for you naysayers on quality...The new flac file is 62.6% its original size. The flac made from the lossy core (only 16-bit mind you) is 43.5%! Much more quality and actual sound information to fill a file with. If I was to take a studio music rip that is 24/192, they are usually around 40-50% when losslessly compressed. If I took that original PCM and resampled it down to 24/96 and compressed it losslessly, I would get a much higher number, usually 60-70%. This just shows that lossy is crap! I am such a fanatic about audio quality that I do not or will not get a surround sound system as cool as it may be. I don't like the effect rooms acoustically apply to sound. For me it's more worthwhile to listen through headphones. What I do with all 5.1 Lossless tracks is split them up into wavs. Then in Goldwave I make a new blank wav file that is 24-bits/96khz. I mix the center and LFE into both channels, 0 dB. Then I select the left channel, and mix the front left and surround left into there, 0 dB, and I do the same for the right side. Of course with all those mixed in the levels are clipped, but Goldwave saves what you are editing in floating point So I just find the maximum peak, and take that much volume off minus 0.01 dB. Save, and compress with flac! Last edited by ramicio; 14th August 2010 at 01:14.