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Old 24th July 2016, 22:37   #1  |  Link
jrodefeld
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Help cleaning up laserdisc transfer?

I've got a few quick questions related to a laserdisc transfer I have. What I want to do is inverse telecine it, upscale it to 1080p and include it on a Blu-ray I am authoring. It will be a special feature, not the main feature on the disc.

I didn't do the capturing myself. However, I know the person who did capture it for me used a VERY high end laserdisc player. A Pioneer HLD-X9 to be exact. I know he used S-Video cables to a DVD Recorder. He sent me a DVD9.

Anyway, I am curious what AVISynth filters you'd recommend to get the best quality upscaled version of a laserdisc transfer?

Here is the script I am using at the moment:

Mpeg2Source("C:\DM2_MeiAh_Gold_merged.d2v", cpu=6)

Crop(6,40,-6,-40)

AssumeTFF()
TFM(mode=5, pp=0)
Tdecimate(mode=0)

SuperRes(4, .8, 0, """nnedi3_rpow2(2, nns=4, cshift="Spline36Resize")""")

SuperRes(4, .8, 0, """nnedi3_rpow2(2, nns=4, cshift="Spline36Resize", fwidth = 1920, fheight = 1080)""")



I've been experimenting with DAA() and NAA() commands to get rid of any remaining aliasing. I'd just like to know if there are any additional filters that you'd recommend for laserdisc transfers?

Thanks!
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:47   #2  |  Link
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First of all, laserdisc is simply analog NTSC video, so whatever techniques you have used for OTA SD captures and VHS/Beta/8mm analog video will also apply to laserdisc.

I still do laserdisc transfers, and am returning one today to a client. Here are the issues I have had to deal with in the past:

1. Sparkle. Laserdiscs often had white "sparkles," similar the white dropouts you get with VHS tape, but more circular. Noise filters or dust/spot removers work best.

2. Levels. Pay particular attention to your histogram or scopes and make sure the levels are correct. Laserdiscs always seem to be a little low on contrast, at least with my transfer technique.

3. Audio. You said that the transfer was done with high-end equipment. The S-Video output actually may be worse than composite. I remember all sorts of posts about this (in Compuserve forums) twenty years ago. I never totally bought into the arguments, but most of what people said was that, unlike VHS where there is a huge reduction in dot crawl and other composite artifacts, such was not the case with laserdisc. However, I'm sure your transfer is fine, and you shouldn't worry about it. The only real advantage to "high end" laserdisc players is that the later generation were able to extract the AC-3 audio, if the laserdisc had it. Most of the early ones did not, and even late in the laserdisc life cycle, many still did not. However, if yours did, hopefully you will have access to the better audio. Whether they were able to tap into the AC-3 output or not, they definitely should have used the digital rather than the analog channel. The differences are not as great as those between VHS linear and Hi-Fi audio, but they are still pretty substantial.

4. Sharpening. I have never felt that sharpening for VHS/Beta/8mm produce acceptable results, but if you have a really good laserdisc transfer, you might want to experiment with a little sharpening.

5. Noise. The noise on a laserdisc is usually much less than what you get from VHS, so you shouldn't need to do too much denoising. I usually use a scaled back version of my MDegrain denoising, although I think people here may be able to suggest a better option.

6. IVTC. The last two laserdiscs I did were both old sports films, so they needed IVTC. The client is really, really sharp, and he caught some pretty significant errors in the IVTC that I had missed. The problems were that I used the default TFM/TDecimate settings. What I found is that the matching was failing quite a bit, and I then looked back at my engineering notebook and discovered that the cthresh setting can make a HUGE difference in the outcome. In my case, setting cthresh=255 fixed all problems. I suggest you look into this and play around with the setting and see if you can spot places where the IVTC fails. What you will see when it fails is what looks like a dropped frame, i.e., the motion will jerk forward too far from one frame to the next, but only once in a great while.

I've got to leave now, but if you have specific questions, post again. Also, if you have some video to post, I'll take a look at it.

Others will have to chime in with suggestions about up-resn'g, although there are literally dozens of threads about that very subject, so you'll probably get more complete answers by just doing some searching.

Last edited by johnmeyer; 26th July 2016 at 17:08. Reason: typo
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Old 26th July 2016, 07:30   #3  |  Link
jrodefeld
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
First of all, laserdisc is simply analog NTSC video, so whatever techniques you have used for OTA SD captures and VHS/Beta/8mm analog video will also apply to laserdisc.

I still do laserdisc transfers, and am returning one today to a client. Here are the issues I have had to deal with in the past:

1. Sparkle. Laserdiscs often had white "sparkles," similar the white dropouts you get with VHS tape, but more circular. Noise filters or dust/spot removers work best.

2. Levels. Pay particular attention to your histogram or scopes and make sure the levels are correct. Laserdiscs always seem to be a little low on contrast, at least with my transfer technique.

3. Audio. You said that the transfer was done with high-end equipment. The S-Video output actually may be worse than composite. I remember all sorts of posts about this (in Compuserve forums) twenty years ago. I never totally bought into the arguments, but most of what people said was that, unlike VHS where there is a huge reduction in dot crawl and other composite artifacts, such was not the case with laserdisc. However, I'm sure your transfer is find, and you shouldn't worry about it. The only real advantage to "high end" laserdisc players is that the later generation were able to extract the AC-3 audio, if the laserdisc had it. Most of the early ones did not, and even late in the laserdisc life cycle, many still did not. However, if yours did, hopefully you will have access to the better audio. Whether they were able to tap into the AC-3 output or not, they definitely should have used the digital rather than the analog channel. The differences are not as great as those between VHS linear and Hi-Fi audio, but they are still pretty substantial.

4. Sharpening. I have never felt that sharpening for VHS/Beta/8mm produce acceptable results, but if you have a really good laserdisc transfer, you might want to experiment with a little sharpening.

5. Noise. The noise on a laserdisc is usually much less than what you get from VHS, so you shouldn't need to do too much denoising. I usually use a scaled back version of my MDegrain denoising, although I think people here may be able to suggest a better option.

6. IVTC. The last two laserdiscs I did were both old sports films, so they needed IVTC. The client is really, really sharp, and he caught some pretty significant errors in the IVTC that I had missed. The problems were that I used the default TFM/TDecimate settings. What I found is that the matching was failing quite a bit, and I then looked back at my engineering notebook and discovered that the cthresh setting can make a HUGE difference in the outcome. In my case, setting cthresh=255 fixed all problems. I suggest you look into this and play around with the setting and see if you can spot places where the IVTC fails. What you will see when it fails is what looks like a dropped frame, i.e., the motion will jerk forward too far from one frame to the next, but only once in a great while.

I've got to leave now, but if you have specific questions, post again. Also, if you have some video to post, I'll take a look at it.

Others will have to chime in with suggestions about up-resn'g, although there are literally dozens of threads about that very subject, so you'll probably get more complete answers by just doing some searching.
Thanks for the very thorough response! I'll try using the cthresh command and see if that improves things.

From what I have read, when doing laserdisc transfers, you should be using composite and not S-Video. However, the exception to this is a small number of super high-end players where using S-Video is better. I'm not exactly sure of the reasons for this, but I'm thinking that the HLD-X9 is one of those select few players where S-Video is better. It doesn't really matter anyway because it's the only source I have at the moment.

I've got the audio from another source and it is a very high quality capture, so no worries there.

I'll see if I can post a short clip of my video sometime in the next day or so.

Thanks!
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Old 26th July 2016, 07:38   #4  |  Link
feisty2
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Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post
From what I have read, when doing laserdisc transfers, you should be using composite and not S-Video.
what????
that's absolutely bullshit, you want "dot crawl" and "rainbow"? go composite, and how about just "rainbow", go S-Video, both are toxic and should never be used

YPbPr is the master race here.
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Old 26th July 2016, 08:09   #5  |  Link
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Most people refer to YPbPr as Component, which is confusingly similar sounding to composite. I really hope that's all this was.

Incidentally, you can use good old composite cables for component hookups, assuming it's a full set with audio. Just remember which color went where, since you obviously aren't going to match a white or yellow plug into a blue or green socket. Analog cable is analog cable, if you're in a bind.
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Old 26th July 2016, 08:41   #6  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post
What I want to do is inverse telecine it, upscale it to 1080p and include it on a Blu-ray I am authoring.
Stupid question, why upscale to 1080p ?
I've often do the same thing (transform 480i@29.97 on 23.976p video and put it on Blu-Ray), but just upscale to 720p.
If i could avoid the upscale i would, unfortunately the Blu-Ray standard accept only 480i@29.97 or 576i@25 for SD resolution.
The lowest resolution at 23.976 the Blu-Ray standard accept is 720. If you want to do 23.976p video, my advice would be to upscale only up to 720p. From my point of view it's useless to upscale to 1080p, save your banditwh to put more thing on the Blu-Ray, or increase the quality for the same final file size. Personnaly, i think you'll gain nothing upscaling up to 1080p.

It's just a little... "sad" that he has to put it on DVD, because you have MPEG2 compression. The few times i've done a laserdisc transfert, i saved the capture on a lossless file, and work with this.

Last edited by jpsdr; 26th July 2016 at 08:44.
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Old 26th July 2016, 08:43   #7  |  Link
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Originally Posted by feisty2 View Post
what????
that's absolutely bullshit, you want "dot crawl" and "rainbow"? go composite, and how about just "rainbow", go S-Video, both are toxic and should never be used

YPbPr is the master race here.
The source video is already composite, so "going S-Video" doesn't really make much of a difference - except that some laserdisc players have better comb filters than whatever is in people's capture cards.

So dot crawl and rainbow are inevitable, it's just a question of what you use to separate the video without making them much worse.
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Old 26th July 2016, 08:49   #8  |  Link
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It's a very long time ago i've read spec on laserdisc video, but i thought remember (but maybe my memory is wrong), that luma and chroma where, like on VHS, recorded separately. I remember that video information is stored in frequence modulation, that's for sure.
But, i'm sure that on my Laserdisc player (the only Pioneer high end with S-Video output avaible in europe), the S-Video output was better than the Composite output.

Edit : After a little search, video was indeed stored in composite format, not Y and C separately, so thing are exactly how davidhorman said, my bad.

Last edited by jpsdr; 26th July 2016 at 09:16.
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Old 26th July 2016, 17:16   #9  |  Link
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what????
that's absolutely bullshit, you want "dot crawl" and "rainbow"? go composite, and how about just "rainbow", go S-Video, both are toxic and should never be used

YPbPr is the master race here.
Actually, it isn't BS. All you have to do is one Google search and you'll find all sorts of posts about this. I don't have time to spend on this, so I'll just provide this single link. Since it is from this forum, and it quotes a senior member, it might hold some sway:

Is COMPOSITE just as good as S-VIDEO when recording from LASERDISC?

Years ago, when I first start watching my laserdiscs, shortly after I also got my first S-VHS VCR, I did lots of experiments using both S-Video and composite connections. The differences out of my VCR were obvious, but there were zero detectable differences between S-Video and composite connections when watching my laserdiscs.

So, from actual tests with my own eyes and my own equipment, I think the information is, in fact, correct.
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Old 26th July 2016, 18:06   #10  |  Link
feisty2
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Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
Actually, it isn't BS. All you have to do is one Google search and you'll find all sorts of posts about this. I don't have time to spend on this, so I'll just provide this single link. Since it is from this forum, and it quotes a senior member, it might hold some sway:

Is COMPOSITE just as good as S-VIDEO when recording from LASERDISC?

Years ago, when I first start watching my laserdiscs, shortly after I also got my first S-VHS VCR, I did lots of experiments using both S-Video and composite connections. The differences out of my VCR were obvious, but there were zero detectable differences between S-Video and composite connections when watching my laserdiscs.

So, from actual tests with my own eyes and my own equipment, I think the information is, in fact, correct.
didn't know videos on laserdiscs are already composite, anyways I know little about analog systems and I simply don't bother to get my hands on any analog video other than YPbPr/component RGB cuz that's just a lost cause, dot crawl and rainbow are the most evil artifacts imho, even more evil than compression artifacts

and hell, why can't people just take component video and be happy with it. cheap shit like composite and s-video, they need to be destroyed.

to the guy who invented composite video, Fuck You! (and the guy who invented s-video, the guy invented interlacing, the guy invented chroma subsampling, the guy invented limited range, the guy thought 8bpc was enough precision)
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Last edited by feisty2; 26th July 2016 at 18:27.
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Old 26th July 2016, 18:28   #11  |  Link
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to the guy who invented composite video, Fuck You! (and the guy who invented s-video, the guy invented interlacing, the guy invented color subsampling, the guy invented limited range, the guy thought 8bpc was enough precision)
Don't forget that TV exist since a long time, and if some thing are like they are, it's because there was a very very good technical reason, and at the time, there was no other possibility, because of technical limitation. You don't know analog as you said, i know of analog, history of TV, why things are as they are. Don't forget that there is a thing callled "evolution", technic was not always as they are today.
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Old 26th July 2016, 18:39   #12  |  Link
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... dot crawl and rainbow are the most evil artifacts imho, even more evil than compression artifacts
I think that comparison depends a LOT on the extent of the problem. Low-bandwidth compression artifacts can be pretty overwhelming, and far worse than any dot crawl I've ever seen.

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and hell, why can't people just take component video and be happy with it. cheap shit like composite and s-video, they need to be destroyed.
Well, first of all, component video is not available from many analog video players. Second of all, as you just found out about laserdisc, the ability of component video to provide a better result depends almost entirely on how the analog video is stored. So, component does not always equal "better."

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to the guy who invented composite video, F*** You! (and the guy who invented s-video, the guy invented interlacing, the guy invented color subsampling, the guy invented limited range, the guy thought 8bpc was enough precision)
As an engineer, I have to laugh at this. I've actually designed lots of analog circuits and every design involves tradeoffs, and all the things you don't like are the results of those tradeoffs. If none of them were ever invented, we wouldn't have had any television until sometime in the 1990s.

What's even funnier is that you seem to be saying that all this digital stuff is wonderful. The problem is that it involves its own tradeoffs. Today I am going to try to figure out how to save some wonderful drone video taken in Iceland's national park at 2:00 a.m. in the fog. The problem is that the video, while spectacular, is almost unwatchable because of how your digital video handles fog. The problem is that digital video has its own pesky engineering tradeoffs, and they can be as bad as anything in the analog world.

To be able to record digital HD or 4K video in a camera that can be held by a human being (or carried aloft by a drone), it has to be compressed. And, because of the physics and math involved, it can no longer be compressed one frame at a time, but instead must use interframe compression. This leads to the so-called "long GOP" compression artifacts. With fog, you end up with the objects seen through the fog looking just fine, but the fog itself is seen in jerks because the compression algorithms cannot track the amorphous cloud of fog, and therefore it hardly moves for 14 frames, and only when the next keyframe is stored does it reset to the proper location.

So, in this case, I'd take dot crawl any day of the week, and I would say they should shoot the person who invented digital video compression.

But of course, without compression, we wouldn't have digital video, and since we wouldn't have had analog video without all the things you hate, between us we'd still be waiting for television to be invented.
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Old 26th July 2016, 18:43   #13  |  Link
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Don't forget that TV exist since a long time, and if some thing are like they are, it's because there was a very very good technical reason, and at the time, there was no other possibility, because of technical limitation. You don't know analog as you said, i know of analog, history of TV, why things are as they are. Don't forget that there is a thing callled "evolution", technic was not always as they are today.
the thing is, all these should have just fallen into the history once they had fulfilled their "yeah, it's kind of a workaround and useful only currently, not in the future" mission, and yet they have been existing even till now, I mean, Rec. 2020 killed interlacing FINALLY! and chroma subsampling is still fucking alive in Rec. 2020... sweet jesus
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Old 26th July 2016, 19:10   #14  |  Link
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This leads to the so-called "long GOP" compression artifacts. With fog, you end up with the objects seen through the fog looking just fine, but the fog itself is seen in jerks because the compression algorithms cannot track the amorphous cloud of fog, and therefore it hardly moves for 14 frames, and only when the next keyframe is stored does it reset to the proper location.
compression artifacts, the exact thing I hate the most excluding dot crawl/rainbow

but compression artifacts could be removed almost completely, something that's not gonna happen on dot crawl/rainbow, especially rainbow, you filter the vid till its color looks totally washed out and you can still see some residual rainbows..

and I'd be glad to see what I can do and maybe add a new function to Oyster if you can upload a sample of that jerky vid and start another thread for that.
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Old 26th July 2016, 19:57   #15  |  Link
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and I'd be glad to see what I can do and maybe add a new function to Oyster if you can upload a sample of that jerky vid and start another thread for that.
If you can reduce the problem, you're a genius. I'll try to figure out how to upload enough without compromising the business negotiations. The people who own the video are trying to sell it to the car company whose vehicle is featured, and there is some real money involved. I'll start a new thread when I'm ready to do that. I want to see how far I can get by sensing the "jump" points and then using motion estimation to smooth out the video at those points.
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Old 26th July 2016, 20:11   #16  |  Link
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Composite video was the best we had back in the mid-to-late 70's. It is what it is!

As somebody who has quite a few LaserDisc's (both NTSC and PAL), I'd be interested to see how this topic progresses.

I guess the first step is obtaining a good quality analogue video to digital video capture device
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Old 26th July 2016, 20:46   #17  |  Link
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(sorry for thread hijack) or a mod can split this off

@feisty, while john is preparing, have a look at some of the native dji phantom 3 drone samples in this linked thread, which exhibit similar long GOP characteristics as to what I believe he is describing , but instead cloud shadows

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...-I-do-about-it

It's not long GOP per se in general that is at fault, it's the cheap / low quality compression specifically used in the drone. You can get much higher quality at the same bitrate, with only slightly more expensive encoding hardware chip. That drone uses no b-frames . It's a cost cutting decision.

So anyways there has should be a more elegant solution than "dumb" temporal smoothing, because you have a known 8frame GOP cycle, IPPPPPPP . So throw some oysters or other seafood at it

Last edited by poisondeathray; 26th July 2016 at 20:49.
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Old 26th July 2016, 22:39   #18  |  Link
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(sorry for thread hijack) or a mod can split this off

@feisty, while john is preparing, have a look at some of the native dji phantom 3 drone samples in this linked thread, which exhibit similar long GOP characteristics as to what I believe he is describing , but instead cloud shadows

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...-I-do-about-it

It's not long GOP per se in general that is at fault, it's the cheap / low quality compression specifically used in the drone. You can get much higher quality at the same bitrate, with only slightly more expensive encoding hardware chip. That drone uses no b-frames . It's a cost cutting decision.

So anyways there has should be a more elegant solution than "dumb" temporal smoothing, because you have a known 8frame GOP cycle, IPPPPPPP . So throw some oysters or other seafood at it
I'll start a different thread for this. Bottom line: the problems with the sample you linked to is very similar to what I'm looking at, but mine is far worse because it was taken at 2:00 a.m. and despite the midnight sun, it is still very dark, so the GOP problem is compounded by having a lot of sensor noise. The camera AFIK was the stock DJI Inspire (two operator) drone.

And you're right: the GOP is 8 frames long.

-----
[edit]Here's a link to my new thread on this subject:

Long GOP Artifacts

We now return you to your regular programming ...

Last edited by johnmeyer; 26th July 2016 at 23:14. Reason: Added link to new thread
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Old 27th July 2016, 00:30   #19  |  Link
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I just wanted to point out one case where composite is actually better from a laserdisc!

When the content is film with pulldown, sometimes a field is repeated for each phase of the dot crawl, which means if you average those fields together, you get a perfect, true s-video quality field with no dot crawl.

Of course, this one perfect field isn't so useful, however I had the idea that you use it as a guide somehow to reduce dot crawl in other fields and frames, or some kind of interpolation.

It seems it should work somehow, since you have this perfect reference to help you.

You can't use this idea with the s-video out, I think the attempts at filtering out the dot-crawl would destroy those two fields that were in opposite phases.

Also, when you average two fields, if the noise is normally distributed (a good assumption), the standard deviation of the noise is reduced by sqrt(2) or 41%.

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Old 27th July 2016, 08:10   #20  |  Link
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Hi all,

Can anyone recommend any good quality analogue video to digital video capture devices?


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