madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by vivan

I have 6-bit + FRC IPS display, dithering noise is easy noticeable, so I'm pretty sure that it runs at 60 hz. But I can't spot the pattern. When comparing it with true 8-bit IPS (and madVR set to 6-bit) - I would say that dithering is far from dynamic ordered - more like dynamic random.
And banding there is terrible, 6-bit output in madVR is the only way to fight it.

Great, thanks for that vivian.

I found a great read about FRC that clearly explains what it is: http://m.prohardver.hu/dl/cnt/2007-0...ccz/hi-frc.pdf
As I understand Spatial dithering is a group of static pixels in a pattern, FRC is Temporal dithering is averaged by the human eye because of fast change between shades.
Like you already noticed, FRC in displays is nothing more than Spatial and Temporal combined, or "Random Dithering" with "Change Every Frame" at the monitor refresh rate, in madVRs language.

When I test in 3bit I can clearly see that enabling Smooth Motion makes the dithering pattern faster, while when disabling SM the pattern changes every video frame (24).
But this is still not as fast as the refresh rate, because when I speed up the video the dithering gets even faster till it reaches max speed of the refresh rate.
So madVR is worse than FRC in that sense that it is not using the maximum potential of Temporal dithering.
I hope madshi will realize that it is better to dither every refresh of the display, instead it being somehow related to the slower video frame rate.


On the worse side of understanding, FRC (Temporal dithering) needs at least 4 refresh cycles to generate the proper shade of the promised higher bit depth in a single pixel.
Since 6 to 8bit, and 8 to 10bit, has exactly 4 times the steps,
For example:
For 6+FRC (60Hz) to appear as 8bit, the maximum video frame rate has to be 4 times slower (and slower) than the refresh rate - > 15fps max on a 60Hz display.
For a 8+FRC display to look like a true 10bit display same principle applies, the image has to stay still for at least 4 refresh cycles.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

Man, I sure hope that you are right and FRC uses at least four times the refresh rate of the screen to generate the shades.
If not, and FRC uses the refresh rate of the screen, it is the worst method by far and should be used strictly for static images.

Because no IPS LCD has been released with real response times <5 ms, and almost all are >8ms for the slowest transitions, I am pretty sure all the temporal dithering happens at the refresh rate, not faster. Even the fastest TN panels have max transition times of ~3 ms, too slow for above refresh rate dithering.

I prefer error diffusion 1 (mono, static) and madVR set to 6-bit on a 6-bit+FRC panel. I don't know about 8-bit+FRC because none of my current displays accept >8-bit at all (the Nvidia control panel only lists 8-bit, using DP1.2). I find temporal dithering distracting, it adds a slight shimmer to the image.

[MistahBonzai]

Also keep windows in 10bit so that the switch to FSE is faster.

Using native 10-bit 4:4:4 display with Direct3D 11/FSE. Works great! But for the life of me I can't figure out how/where to set windowed mode to 10-bit. BTW: My GPU is AMD HD-7850 if that matters (like with windowed overlay) and running fully updated Windows 7. Help?

[YxP]

Originally Posted by MistahBonzai

I'm very familiar with the madVR settings but for the life of me I can't figure out how/where to set windowed mode to 10-bit. BTW: My GPU is AMD HD-7850 if that matters (like with windowed overlay) and running fully updated Windows 7. Help?

10bit works only in fullscreen exclusive mode.

[Patrik G]

one question here
Do you ever watch the movies or are you looking forward to another 2 hours of pixel peeping the dithering ?

set up your settings and let it be.
i takes one hour max then enjoy the damn movies instead
like its ment to be used lol

[MistahBonzai]

Originally Posted by YxP

10bit works only in fullscreen exclusive mode.

That's what I thought but James Freeman seems to indicate otherwise in the last line of post 30217

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by MistahBonzai

That's what I thought but James Freeman seems to indicate otherwise in the last line of post 30217

In the latest NVIDIA drivers you can set the driver to always output 10/12-bit over DP/HDMI. This does not change what Windows does, and you still need FSE to output 10-bit with madVR - it does however make switches from/to FSE faster, as the driver does not have to change output format, so the DP/HDMI link does not have to be re-initiated.

[FireFreak111]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

Because no IPS LCD has been released with real response times <5 ms, and almost all are >8ms for the slowest transitions, I am pretty sure all the temporal dithering happens at the refresh rate, not faster. Even the fastest TN panels have max transition times of ~3 ms, too slow for above refresh rate dithering.

I prefer error diffusion 1 (mono, static) and madVR set to 6-bit on a 6-bit+FRC panel. I don't know about 8-bit+FRC because none of my current displays accept >8-bit at all (the Nvidia control panel only lists 8-bit, using DP1.2). I find temporal dithering distracting, it adds a slight shimmer to the image.

Current best IPS panel in reference to response times:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/acer_xb270hu.htm
On the normal overdrive setting at 144hz there was practically no overshoot, and an average of 5.5ms real response time. There is no FRC on this display, as far as I can tell its an 8 bit panel, not 8 bit + FRC. Your point still stands.

Ideally you would need an OLED panel to get the response times your thinking of, but at that point you might as well make the panel 10 bit and cut the need for FRC, since they are still incredibly expensive.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by FireFreak111

Current best IPS panel in reference to response times:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/acer_xb270hu.htm
On the normal overdrive setting at 144hz there was practically no overshoot, and an average of 5.5ms real response time. There is no FRC on this display, as far as I can tell its an 8 bit panel, not 8 bit + FRC. Your point still stands.

Ideally you would need an OLED panel to get the response times your thinking of, but at that point you might as well make the panel 10 bit and cut the need for FRC, since they are still incredibly expensive.

That 144Hz IPS is actually my current display and it is why I had to say below 5ms.

And yes, it only accepts 8-bit, but it is still a surprisingly good panel.

Oddly on a 8-bit+FRC monitor setting Windows to 10-bit (if possible) would be better but with madVR I think I would still prefer 8-bit output due to madVR's dithering.

[JarrettH]

Don't drive yourselves crazy

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

Oddly on a 8-bit+FRC monitor setting Windows to 10-bit (if possible) would be better but with madVR I think I would still prefer 8-bit output due to madVR's dithering.
144Hz IPS is actually my current display

8bit+FRC at 144Hz would be better than 8bit+FRC at 60Hz, for the simple reason that it is faster.
It takes 4 refresh cycles to simulate the 4 shades difference between 8 and 10bit in a single pixel, so higher refresh rate is significant.
For a reason unknown to me, madVR does not dither in the screens refresh rate thus not utilizing the true potential of temporal dithering.
Hence FRC is still better to some extent, although madVR dithering is gamma compensated but this becomes less significant the higher the bit depth.

Madshi can make madVR dithering better than any FRC just by making an option to dither at displays refresh rate.
When/If it is done, 8bit + madVR dithering would be better than any 8+FRC, especially at higher refresh panels.

[MistahBonzai]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

In the latest NVIDIA drivers you can set the driver to always output 10/12-bit over DP/HDMI. This does not change what Windows does, and you still need FSE to output 10-bit with madVR - it does however make switches from/to FSE faster, as the driver does not have to change output format, so the DP/HDMI link does not have to be re-initiated.

Thanks Nev. I thought I had been overlooking some simple remedy for resolving the messy HDMI re-init between 10-bit FSE and 8-bit windowed mode with the AMD drivers.

[RainyDog]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

In the latest NVIDIA drivers you can set the driver to always output 10/12-bit over DP/HDMI. This does not change what Windows does, and you still need FSE to output 10-bit with madVR - it does however make switches from/to FSE faster, as the driver does not have to change output format, so the DP/HDMI link does not have to be re-initiated.

Thanks for pointing this out nevcairiel. It didn't cross my mind even though the constant output format changes have been driving me nuts as my telly also switches Scene modes too. I'll update to the latest drivers tonight then.

I still don't understand why my custom resolution for perfect 23.976 playback is ignored when using D3D11 10bit output though. I get 23.971 instead leading to occasional frame skips. Unless the issue it that I don't need a custom resolution in 10bit mode? I'll try disabling it and see what happens.

[yok833]

Does someone know if the last generation of Panasonic plasma (st50/st60) can manage 10 bit ????if yes is it necessary to also change the nvidia control panel from 8 to 12 bit in addition of MadVR d3d11 & 10 bit output?

[phoenix369]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

In the latest NVIDIA drivers you can set the driver to always output 10/12-bit over DP/HDMI. This does not change what Windows does, and you still need FSE to output 10-bit with madVR - it does however make switches from/to FSE faster, as the driver does not have to change output format, so the DP/HDMI link does not have to be re-initiated.

Could this be the most certain indicative of a monitor support for 10-bit?

[Shiro Baka Neko]

Originally Posted by Shiandow

I'm pretty sure MadVR dithers in the refresh rate of the display if you enable smooth motion. Also, if you output 10 bit then MadVR should dither from 16 bits to 10, which is then dithered from 10 bits to 8 on your monitor, this would be worse than directly dithering to 8 bits. Although it's unlikely that you'll be able to actually see any difference.

Then what should I set for dithering for 6bit+FRC 60Hz monitor?
I think 6bit output and error diffusion 1 look best, but my gpu is too weak to run error diffusion.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

8bit+FRC at 144Hz would be better than 8bit+FRC at 60Hz, for the simple reason that it is faster.
It takes 4 refresh cycles to simulate the 4 shades difference between 8 and 10bit in a single pixel, so higher refresh rate is significant.
For a reason unknown to me, madVR does not dither in the screens refresh rate thus not utilizing the true potential of temporal dithering.
Hence FRC is still better to some extent, although madVR dithering is gamma compensated but this becomes less significant the higher the bit depth.

Madshi can make madVR dithering better than any FRC just by making an option to dither at displays refresh rate.
When/If it is done, 8bit + madVR dithering would be better than any 8+FRC, especially at higher refresh panels.

you know you need 4 cycles to get 10 bit with 8 bit FRC. madVR needs 8 bit to get 11 bit.
my 144 hz 6 bit+FRC doesn't even come close to 8 bit unditehred and that with a still image.
because it sound good on paper doesn't mean it is good at all.
maybe this helps maybe not. but 6 bit+FRC panel look usually pretty bad.

Originally Posted by yok833

Does someone know if the last generation of Panasonic plasma (st50/st60) can manage 10 bit ????if yes is it necessary to also change the nvidia control panel from 8 to 12 bit in addition of MadVR d3d11 & 10 bit output?

plasma a low bit dither panel. they will nearly for sure support 10/12 bit input but if they benefit not you have to find this out by your self.

Originally Posted by phoenix369

Could this be the most certain indicative of a monitor support for 10-bit?

if your can send 10 bit it can handle 10 bit input like most screen doesn't mean they have a 10 bit panel what so ever.

Originally Posted by Shiro Baka Neko

Then what should I set for dithering for 6bit+FRC 60Hz monitor?
I think 6bit output and error diffusion 1 look best, but my gpu is too weak to run error diffusion.

if 6 bit error diffusion looks best i wouldn't be shocked if 6 bit ordered dithering would still be better.
i guess you have to try out.

[phoenix369]

Originally Posted by huhn

if you can send 10 bit it can handle 10 bit input like most screen doesn't mean they have a 10 bit panel what so ever.

So, if I understand correctly, this setting only affects what the GPU sends, and it´s not aware of the display capabilities.
If this were true, I suppose everybody with a modern GPU could force sending 10-bit output to the display. I´m telling this because that setting is locked at 8bpc with my GF970, HDMI 2.0 to my Panasonix AX800.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by phoenix369

So, if I understand correctly, this setting only affects what the GPU sends, and it´s not aware of the display capabilities.
If this were true, I suppose everybody with a modern GPU could force sending 10-bit output to the display. I´m telling this because that setting is locked at 8bpc with my GF970, HDMI 2.0 to my Panasonix AX800.

hdmi 2.0 can't do 10 bit RGB UHD @ 60 HZ.
should be possible with DP this connector can do 10 bit RGB UHD @60hz or the display can't handle 10 bit input.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by 6233638

With a 10-bit output it seems as though the smoother error diffusion should be all that is necessary.

Fully agreed, The lack of ED@10bit is also one of the reasons why I don't care much about getting my box to support it when ED2@8bit looks so wunderbar to begin with

Originally Posted by Patrik G

Do you ever watch the movies or are you looking forward to another 2 hours of pixel peeping the dithering ?

set up your settings and let it be.
i takes one hour max then enjoy the damn movies instead
like it's meant to be used lol

Yeah yeah, well you're in the thread of Team Nitpick buddy. Much like audio gear you dunno what you've been missing till you see/hear it. Many inexperienced ppl will tell you that all DAC's sound the same yadayada, till they hear TOTL gear....and if they still don't hear a difference then they're very lucky coz they'll have cash to invest somewhere else.

Try mVR for a while enabling all its best features then go back to EVR if you dare