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Old 1st December 2016, 04:22   #41061  |  Link
Sunspark
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Catmull-rom is the same as Bicubic 50 which is soft. There is nothing wrong with using Bicubic 60 for chroma upscaling. I use it by choice with jinc for luma because it looks better than jinc/jinc to me, and also because when it comes to colour, catmull-rom and bicubic are the chromas that match the colours of nearest-neighbour. I don't know about the newest algos as I never tested and they require more gpu anyway. The goal is not to make stuff sharp as a tack. When image editing, good quality unsharp masking after downscaling stops at the point where the sharpen just barely becomes visible via preview on and off, this is usually on an case by case basis for dialing in the numbers so I do agree with the selection of 60 here, because 75 was already on the sharper side.
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Old 1st December 2016, 04:53   #41062  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
Anyone have an idea what it could be? Is my graphics card faulty?
I'd start with the system BIOS first. Reset it and test then look for an updated BIOS for the motherboard and GPU.
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Old 1st December 2016, 08:52   #41063  |  Link
Backflash
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Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
If the PC does go to standby and return the video is always green and I have to restart the player for it to work again.
I had DP to miniDP and screen always bugged on me if I left player on pause and left pc to switch screen off. Screen didn't wake up 3 out of 10 times. I got DP-DP cable it went away(for now), so I think it's driver issue in my case. It is also happening only on w10.
Just do not leave player running when you need to step away from PC.
Also it's generally bad to let PC go to sleep, it somewhat works for laptops because battery life, but there is no need to do that with PC. So many things can go wrong with modern GPU drivers, probably that's what happening, you are not saving word document into RAM, it's a bit more complicated with rendering I think.
Set it do disable display and never go to sleep, most safe option.
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Old 1st December 2016, 08:58   #41064  |  Link
StinDaWg
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've heard a lot of feedback about the new settings dialog organization. Thanks, guys.

But I don't remember anybody commenting yet on the new NGU-Low quality level. It's faster but softer than the old NGU-Low. But is it still "acceptable"? How's sharpness, aliasing, ringing etc for you? Is it worthy of the "NGU" sticker?
I think NGU-Low is great for 720p->1080p upscaling. Switching between NGU-Low and NGU-Very High I see little to no difference with 720p content, except for a very very (did I say very?) small increase in sharpness.

I am now able to run NGU-Low on 720p60 videos, where I couldn't use any NGU levels before with my HD 7770. It's also significantly faster than Jinc+SR2.

There is a bigger difference with SD videos. There is a noticeable quality increase between NGU-Low and NGU-Med, with then smaller increases all the way up to Very High. Surprisingly I am able to use NGU-High on 480p60 videos with render times around 10ms, so it's not much of an issue.

If you are somehow able to make NGU-Low sharper without increasing gpu usage, that would be good though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
Maybe Catmull should be used in place of bicubic150? I've never a/b them though. I thought we were all happy with Catmull, especially as as downscaler, for a long time
Please no. Bicubic 150 AR is a very fast and good alternative to SSIM. It's even better in some ways judging from the pics posted above (we are talking microscopic zooming levels anyways, in practical terms they are almost the same). After upscaling good content with NGU, I don't want to then make it blurrier with Catmull-Rom.

Last edited by StinDaWg; 1st December 2016 at 09:06.
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Old 1st December 2016, 09:23   #41065  |  Link
burfadel
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Originally Posted by Backflash View Post
I had DP to miniDP and screen always bugged on me if I left player on pause and left pc to switch screen off. Screen didn't wake up 3 out of 10 times. I got DP-DP cable it went away(for now), so I think it's driver issue in my case. It is also happening only on w10.
Just do not leave player running when you need to step away from PC.
Also it's generally bad to let PC go to sleep, it somewhat works for laptops because battery life, but there is no need to do that with PC. So many things can go wrong with modern GPU drivers, probably that's what happening, you are not saving word document into RAM, it's a bit more complicated with rendering I think.
Set it do disable display and never go to sleep, most safe option.
Yes, I have a similar problem. madVR seems to lock the player in memory, you can't end the process and you have to literally turn the power off and back on again because it locks such that you can't restart (restart just hangs).

I think I might start another thread specifically targetting any issues with madVR and the hardware involved. I will emphatically state the purpose of the thread so people don't try an argue that it works fine for them so there isn't a problem. From what I have found, the issues seem to be more prevalent on Geforce GTX 10xx models and Radeon RX models (the 400 series). The old R9-280X worked beautifully and on affriend's R9-280X (different other hardware though) runs beautifully with similar settings, so it will be interesting with the responses.
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Old 1st December 2016, 09:27   #41066  |  Link
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Originally Posted by burfadel View Post
I think I might start another thread specifically targetting any issues with madVR and the hardware involved. I will emphatically state the purpose of the thread so people don't try an argue that it works fine for them so there isn't a problem. From what I have found, the issues seem to be more prevalent on Geforce GTX 10xx models and Radeon RX models (the 400 series). The old R9-280X worked beautifully and on affriend's R9-280X (different other hardware though) runs beautifully with similar settings, so it will be interesting with the responses.
It's not madvr related. For example if you send PC to sleep/screen switch off through GPU while running a game same thing will happen.

GPU drivers must not go to sleep on load.
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Old 1st December 2016, 09:38   #41067  |  Link
burfadel
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Originally Posted by Backflash View Post
It's not madvr related. For example if you send PC to sleep/screen switch off through GPU while running a game same thing will happen.

GPU drivers must not go to sleep on load.
With the R9-280X I could let the computer go to sleep if I had it paused in D3D 11 Exclusive mode, or in a windowed mode D3D 11 etc without any issues. Therefore, I know that you can let it do it, the issue and others appears to be with newer Geforce and AMD cards.

If it doesn't work for you, then you are just another person that is affected by this!
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Old 1st December 2016, 09:43   #41068  |  Link
Backflash
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Originally Posted by burfadel View Post
With the R9-280X I could let the computer go to sleep if I had it paused in D3D 11 Exclusive mode, or in a windowed mode D3D 11 etc without any issues. Therefore, I know that you can let it do it, the issue and others appears to be with newer Geforce and AMD cards.

If it doesn't work for you, then you are just another person that is affected by this!
Well yeah, but it's drivers+windows 10 that does this, madvr may trigger it more often but it happens with everything else anyway.
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Old 1st December 2016, 10:01   #41069  |  Link
Razoola
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I wanted to give some feedback on the new settings layout. Personally I do not like it much as I feel its a little confusing. At the same time though I can see the original way was probably not the best either simply because it has elvolved over time. Both ways kind of over complicate the settings. I have a suggestion of a settings layout that may work but at the same time I guess some may not like it and it would be alot of work for madshi given it probably needs the current system demolished and rebuilt...

My idea is under 'scaling algorithms' there should be three sub option windows.

- Movie Original
- Movie Upscaling
- Movie Downscaling

Under each of these settings are dropdown boxes (much like the new doubling options) and other settings that follow the rendering process, from top of page to bottom of page. The user can then choose how chroma / doubling and everything else is handled as it passes through the rendering process. Movie original would be for example where a 1080p move is output to a 1080p disaply. The other two are self explaining.

Would something like that be workable madshi? What do you power users think? I feel it would simplify the options greatly but thats just my opinion.

Last edited by Razoola; 1st December 2016 at 10:22.
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Old 1st December 2016, 10:19   #41070  |  Link
burfadel
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Originally Posted by Backflash View Post
Well yeah, but it's drivers+windows 10 that does this, madvr may trigger it more often but it happens with everything else anyway.
I started a new thread here for specific issues like this:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1788137

I do call it an issue because it does not affect the R9-280X with all other things equal. It seems to only affect newer cards from Nvidia and AMD. If it is driver related then tracking down the cause will allow it to be reported via driver reporting .
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Old 1st December 2016, 10:34   #41071  |  Link
ashlar42
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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Exactly.

Here you can see a comparison between Jinc, Lanczos3, Bicubic150 and SSim1D100 for downscaling after 2x supersampling with NGU:



And zoomed:



Make your choice. For me it is Lanczos3 because Bicubic150 has too much aliasing and Jinc is a little bit too soft.
I don't find Bicubic150 to be aliased at 100% zoom, I just find it pleasantly sharper.
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Old 1st December 2016, 11:48   #41072  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Looking at Neo-XP's zoomed in comparison, there are some spots where SSIM seems to preserve the structure of the upscale better, like a spot on the edge of the woman's face between her eyebrow and eye (on the right side). Other than that it actually seems slightly softer than Bicubic150, but I think the sharpness overall is somewhat more consistent. So I do think this proves that SSIM can make a visible difference, even if the number of pixel differences for a given image are small. Whether the trade off between letting people use all the power of their GPUs and keeping them from wasting power on inconsequential things is worth it is another question.
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Old 1st December 2016, 12:17   #41073  |  Link
Backflash
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Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Looking at Neo-XP's zoomed in comparison, there are some spots where SSIM seems to preserve the structure of the upscale better, like a spot on the edge of the woman's face between her eyebrow and eye (on the right side). Other than that it actually seems slightly softer than Bicubic150, but I think the sharpness overall is somewhat more consistent. So I do think this proves that SSIM can make a visible difference, even if the number of pixel differences for a given image are small. Whether the trade off between letting people use all the power of their GPUs and keeping them from wasting power on inconsequential things is worth it is another question.
There is a weird dot on the left eye(if looking at picture) center with SSIM though. just a glitch?
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Old 1st December 2016, 12:17   #41074  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I don't find Bicubic150 to be aliased at 100% zoom, I just find it pleasantly sharper.
I could live with Bicubic150 for downscaling, it just accentuate the sharpening of Lanczos3 (but the dark halos are increased too). Lanczos3 is just sharp enough for me.

I will test all the algorithms with a bad source material. It should be easier too see all the qualities and defaults of each one.
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Old 1st December 2016, 13:01   #41075  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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There is a weird dot on the left eye(if looking at picture) center with SSIM though. just a glitch?
Do you mean around the bottom right corner of the highlight (the window reflection) in her pupil? Yeah that looks a little weird, might be there in the upscale too though.
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Old 1st December 2016, 15:33   #41076  |  Link
clsid
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Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
If the PC does go to standby and return the video is always green and I have to restart the player for it to work again.

With mpc-hc using the EVR it doesn't happen.
I think this is probably something that madshi can fix.

EVR-CP has similar issues after sleep/hibernate, which can be solved by turning on this option:
options > playback > output > reinitialize when changing display

Relevant code:
https://github.com/mpc-hc/mpc-hc/blo...rPresenter.cpp (starts at line 1627)
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Old 1st December 2016, 16:19   #41077  |  Link
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Hi madshi, since you are now also working on simplifying the settings GUI, I have some ideas regarding the presets/profiles.

1) Get rid of the profile groups. It is just unnecessarily complex. Just let presets cover the whole group in each section.
2) On the main level in the GUI (e.g. scaling algorithms page) show a list of all presets in that section. Have buttons to remove and duplicate a preset.
3) Always have at least one preset. For example called "default". This one can't be removed. It is used as a fallback.
4) Display all settings pages just once. Have a dropdown box somewhere at the top to select the "current" preset. Simpler GUI and one can quickly compare settings of different presets. Have an entry called "new" at the bottom of the list. When selected, this takes the user to the preset creation page of that section.
5) Don't use a profile selection script, but instead give each preset a boolean statement that determines if it should get loaded. This has two benefits. First of all, presets become fully independent, making them easy to share/exchange. So we can start making "Doom9 community approved (TM)" optimized presets in the near future. Secondly, it is much easier to have a large number of presets. Non-programmers are often already struggling with relatively simple profile selection scripts. Given the increasing popularity of 4k and 60fps video, plus the availability of HDR and 3D functionality in madvr, the amount of presents can be significant in case of the true enthusiasts.
6) Add buttons to import/export a preset. Preferably in a (human readable) text-based format (xml/ini) for easy sharing.
7) Add a right-click menu to the boolean statement field of the preset. This is used to quickly insert commonly used variables (srcWidth, deintFps, etc) and could even have submenus for stuff like "(deintFps > 31)".
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Old 1st December 2016, 16:22   #41078  |  Link
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Otherwise, if you can run it, I find NGU high (the new high, old medium) is a breakpoint where the image becomes noticeably better.
Do you mean for luma? Or also for chroma? I tend not want to "waste" resources on chroma by going all-out without visible benefit.

I like NGU a lot but not so much for SD -> 1080p. The picture is too "frizzy" or oversharp. I'll need to play with soften edges, I guess.
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Old 1st December 2016, 16:34   #41079  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by clsid View Post
5) Don't use a profile selection script, but instead give each preset a boolean statement that determines if it should get loaded. This has two benefits. First of all, presets become fully independent, making them easy to share/exchange. So we can start making "Doom9 community approved (TM)" optimized presets in the near future. Secondly, it is much easier to have a large number of presets. Non-programmers are often already struggling with relatively simple profile selection scripts. Given the increasing popularity of 4k and 60fps video, plus the availability of HDR and 3D functionality in madvr, the amount of presents can be significant in case of the true enthusiasts.
I'm not opposed to this, but it does mean the order in which the profiles are listed becomes significant - the first profile to match a rule would be loaded. Right now the profile selection script determines this ordering; that would need to be replaced with something less generic (like a configurable box listing the profiles in the order they will be tried).
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Old 1st December 2016, 16:47   #41080  |  Link
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Yes, of course, the order of the list of presets should preferably be customizable. That is easy to implement (with up/down button for moving a selected preset).

But ideally the loading rule of a preset is specific enough to avoid multiple matches. At least when we start creating presets for others.

The idea is to eventually have a few presets for each common type of situation (e.g. 720p23 -> 1080p23) with increasing quality/complexity. Plus a fixed set of sample files for testing. Plus a dedicated topic for testing results. So everyone can compare rendertimes and pick the most suitable preset for their hardware. Ultimately a little tool that automatically sets proper presets. Unless madshi beats us with some kind of automated performance based magic.

Last edited by clsid; 1st December 2016 at 16:58.
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