Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > VP9 and AV1

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th January 2017, 20:20   #141  |  Link
Selur
Registered User
 
Selur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 7,259
@VincAlastor: I plan to add support for av1 to Hybrid shortly after I can playback such files in MPC-HC.
(got the general support working, but can't verify that everything is okay, since I can't decode the created files)
__________________
Hybrid here in the forum, homepage

Last edited by Selur; 15th January 2017 at 20:48.
Selur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2017, 10:39   #142  |  Link
VincAlastor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Berlin
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selur View Post
@VincAlastor: I plan to add support for av1 to Hybrid shortly after I can playback such files in MPC-HC.
(got the general support working, but can't verify that everything is okay, since I can't decode the created files)
Thank you very much

i use the patched lavfilters as external filters in mpc-hc and seems to work very well, but not tested much for now.

Last edited by VincAlastor; 16th January 2017 at 10:51.
VincAlastor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2017, 19:57   #143  |  Link
Selur
Registered User
 
Selur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 7,259
I'll probably wait till it makes it into a nightly build of mpc-hc.
__________________
Hybrid here in the forum, homepage
Selur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2017, 22:28   #144  |  Link
easyfab
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 332
Not as good as a gui but I create a batch file for my AV1 testing.

here the code if someone is interested ( only cpu-used and bitrate can be set ) :

for the encoder, you can drag and drop the file on the .bat icon or drag and drop when the bat is running. change the path to ffmpeg and aomenc if needed.

Code:
@echo off
Set file="%1"
if  "%1"==""   Set /p file="enter file to encode (or drag and drop )  = "
FOR /F %%I IN ("%file%") DO SET filename=%%~nI

set /p bitrate="bitrate ( enter = default 250K ) without the"K" = "
if  "%bitrate%"=="" set /a bitrate=250

set /p preset_AV1="AV1 Cpu-used (enter = 2) = "
if  "%preset_AV1%"=="" set preset_AV1=2

ffmpeg -i "%file%" -f yuv4mpegpipe - |  aomenc - --target-bitrate=%bitrate% -t 8 --good --cpu-used=%preset_AV1% --tile-columns=4   --passes=2 --pass=1 --fpf="%filename%.fpf"  -o "%filename%_av1.webm"

ffmpeg -i "%file%" -f yuv4mpegpipe - |  aomenc - --target-bitrate=%bitrate% -t 8 --good --cpu-used=%preset_AV1% --tile-columns=4   --passes=2 --pass=2 --fpf="%filename%.fpf"  -o "%filename%_av1.webm"
and for the decoder with mpv ( you can change to ffplay )
change the path to aomdec and mpv if needed.

Code:
:start
Set file=%1
if  "%1"==""   Set /p file="file to decode(drag and drop )  = "
aomdec "%file%" -o - | mpv.exe - --fs
goto start
easyfab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2017, 03:56   #145  |  Link
littlepox
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 218
It's simply too early to take a serious look at AV1 now. My own estimation would be 3 years, before it surpasses x264 for general ripping use-case. This includes decent playback support (perfect in PC platform and good enough for mobile), excellent visual quality(with comprehensive psy optimization, tuning, on a wide spectrum of bit-rate target) and affordable performance (including different levels of performance presets)

Even x265 is not completely there arguably.
littlepox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2017, 07:40   #146  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 10,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selur View Post
I'll probably wait till it makes it into a nightly build of mpc-hc.
Which won't happen until av1 is officially finalized (ie. stable bitstream), and releases of libaom are made instead of just having Git master, sometime later this year, hopefully.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2017, 11:02   #147  |  Link
hajj_3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlepox View Post
It's simply too early to take a serious look at AV1 now. My own estimation would be 3 years, before it surpasses x264 for general ripping use-case. This includes decent playback support (perfect in PC platform and good enough for mobile), excellent visual quality(with comprehensive psy optimization, tuning, on a wide spectrum of bit-rate target) and affordable performance (including different levels of performance presets)

Even x265 is not completely there arguably.
3yrs? pffft. Google and lots of other companies are working on this, development will be much faster than x265 has been. Hardware decoders for mobile will likely be ready in early 2018 and hardware decoders for pc in late 2018. I expect that in early 2019 the encoder will be good enough to replace x264, x265 and vp9.

Last edited by hajj_3; 17th January 2017 at 19:44.
hajj_3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2017, 11:46   #148  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,926
Yeah the next GPU Cycle should show a first introduction as well before that we might see Hybrid solutions already, with Volta there will be definitely some kind of Decoding support 100% on Nvidias side and it could be going straight to first Hardware without any Hybrid step this time at all
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 17th January 2017 at 12:01.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2017, 15:10   #149  |  Link
littlepox
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 218
Playback compatibility is not a issue, as long as it remains open and hardware giants are evolved.
What the real challenge for ripping use-case is the visual quality optimization in transparent level, i.e, very high quality.
Optimization for benchmark is easy, for human eyes you really need to put in a lot of effort.
It takes 3 years for x265 to be there with x265 v2.0 as the milestone.

But still up to now, hardware support for HEVC main10 is poor and limited, and the tuning for x265 is incomplete. Majority still prefer x264 and I don't expect it changes within one year.

Let's see how AV1 progresses. Now it's still a lovely baby, may it grow up healthily.
littlepox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2017, 12:01   #150  |  Link
wiak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: somewhere north
Posts: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaika View Post
There was such a suggestion. Codec AOM replaces VP10, Daala, Thor, HEVC. Anyway what for they did to the alliance. VP10 disappears. I see that these are two paths of development, ie said Clare.

It can and is based on the codec vp10, just don't know it or not version a few months ago.
VP10 is the basis for AV1, but then they retrofitted daala/thor stuff into it, i suspect AOMedia AV2 will be a more daala lapping based codec. but thats for another time and place

TL;DR: VP10 + small parts of daala/thor = AV1
__________________
Woah! Ninja?! http://nwgat.ninja/ (AV1 Overview)
"Not available in your region" has now been redefined as "Go Pirate, you filthy scum" Nwgat
wiak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2017, 14:00   #151  |  Link
Jamaika
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 697
This is not important, what is the basis? This may suggest that changing the name VPX on AOM. However, the contents of the files is very modified and you can no longer suggest that VP10 was base.
https://aomedia-review.googlesource.com/#/c/1008/
As regards Daala. The truth is that a handful of fixes is like one bigger patch to month. I'm afraid that Daala will not have a significant effect on the development of AV2. Unless, development Daala is out of open source technologies.

Last edited by Jamaika; 18th January 2017 at 14:04.
Jamaika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2017, 21:35   #152  |  Link
Quikee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 41
Latest presentation about AV1 (mainly daala tech.) at LCA2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzPaldsmJbk

AV1 bitstream freeze will be in October 2017
Quikee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2017, 03:31   #153  |  Link
iwod
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quikee View Post
Latest presentation about AV1 (mainly daala tech.) at LCA2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzPaldsmJbk

AV1 bitstream freeze will be in October 2017
So that is a further delay. Looking likely to see it pushed into 2018.
iwod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2017, 13:42   #154  |  Link
Quikee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwod View Post
So that is a further delay. Looking likely to see it pushed into 2018.
Well.. that's the first delay (for AV1). First deadline wasn't really realistic considering that most of the experiments didn't play together yet (VP10 experiments - the nextgen2 branch was merged not too long ago) and some experiments aren't in a state to evaluate them (PVQ).
Quikee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st January 2017, 11:54   #155  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,926
Apart from the Mobile space then i see Intel and Nvidia with first Hardware ready in late 2018.
Lot of time for HEVC to flourish tough and x265 to further improve it's overall Psy Layer if the acceptance for H.264 still stays high enough it could go well if x264 by then gets overrolled @ 4K completely it will be much harder and progress on H.266 is also gonna start with a total Psy focus, though well still have to see how Trump will impact all of this.
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 21st January 2017 at 12:04.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2017, 01:51   #156  |  Link
mandarinka
Registered User
 
mandarinka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 729
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajj_3 View Post
3yrs? pffft. Google and lots of other companies are working on this, development will be much faster than x265 has been. Hardware decoders for mobile will likely be ready in early 2018 and hardware decoders for pc in late 2018. I expect that in early 2019 the encoder will be good enough to replace x264, x265 and vp9.
It's as littlepox said. Google and friends ganging up won't really do some miracle in providing a high quality encoder - this has always been hard work for multiple years.

Google itself has shown with VP8's and VP9's treatment in libvpx that they basically either can't or don't care to provide high quality encoder software.

The role of other subjects that are adding into the project now is still to be evaluated, but while they will help, again you can't expect miracles (look how slowly has Daala progressed since 2010, only to find out that their proposed techniques in the end can't be made to work, in many cases. And look how much "too little, too late" has there been over the many years of theora development).

I think that the three years estimate might even be optimistic given how disappointing has libvpx been for these 7.5 years that Google has owned On2 for.
mandarinka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2017, 15:59   #157  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,926
Vp10 isn't disappointing in anyways it is very competitive overall vs MPEG
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2017, 03:13   #158  |  Link
wiak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: somewhere north
Posts: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandarinka View Post
It's as littlepox said. Google and friends ganging up won't really do some miracle in providing a high quality encoder - this has always been hard work for multiple years.

Google itself has shown with VP8's and VP9's treatment in libvpx that they basically either can't or don't care to provide high quality encoder software.

The role of other subjects that are adding into the project now is still to be evaluated, but while they will help, again you can't expect miracles (look how slowly has Daala progressed since 2010, only to find out that their proposed techniques in the end can't be made to work, in many cases. And look how much "too little, too late" has there been over the many years of theora development).

I think that the three years estimate might even be optimistic given how disappointing has libvpx been for these 7.5 years that Google has owned On2 for.
Theora was just a fix/cleanup for VP3 (Xiph)
VP8 and VP9 are pretty good compared to AVC and HEVC (Google)
Daala still is a research project (Xiph/Mozilla)
Thor is Cisco's pet project

AOMedia consolidates VP10, Daala, Thor technologies to create a new codec and a new platform to develop AV1 and future codecs from Xiph, Mozilla, Google, Cisco and a boatload of other companies have joined

to make it clear, AOMedia doesnt only seem to be Google, Google has done some good stuff like creating WebM (Restricts Matroska to VP8/VP9 with Opus/Vorbis only)

WebM/VPx was ruled by a iron-fisted Google
AOMedia is probably more of a non-american democracy


just think back, how it was in the old days, Theora was pretty average/bad

my thoughts
__________________
Woah! Ninja?! http://nwgat.ninja/ (AV1 Overview)
"Not available in your region" has now been redefined as "Go Pirate, you filthy scum" Nwgat
wiak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2017, 06:04   #159  |  Link
Jamaika
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiak View Post
Google has done some good stuff like creating WebM (Restricts Matroska to VP8/VP9 with Opus/Vorbis only)
For me it's just another container. Google didn't want to have anything to do in the MOV container. Now Apple is in the team, so I expect that, and MOV will be under codec VPX / AOM. WebM is a simple container. Why additionally created a container to everything from WebM to Mastroska? Probably for legal reasons.
Certainly had an impact on the implementation of Matroska to video editors and home appliances. Nothing else.
What to implement the HDR function. WebM get a patent from the Adobe DNG and for what JpegXT. Codec IVF is packaged in next container WebM and already. This isn't a new idea. Less fortunate has WebP.
Jamaika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2017, 12:37   #160  |  Link
mzso
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 930
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiak View Post
Google has done some good stuff like creating WebM (Restricts Matroska to VP8/VP9 with Opus/Vorbis only)
This makes me wonder. Will they have an officially supported extension/container for AV1? Or will they just leave the situation as bad as it is, with a bunch of entities having their own preferred containers?
mzso is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.