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Old 24th July 2011, 14:38   #8881  |  Link
robpdotcom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Don't know how can I send you a short example, as the file's size is 6GB. Any ideas?
You said it's an mkv? Use mkvmerge GUI to split the file:

Under the "Global" tab, check the "enable splitting" box. Choose the "..after this duration" option, set the time to 30s, and set the "max. number of files" to 2. Watch the output directory as mkvmerge runs, and abort the process when the second part starts muxing (it should only take a few seconds). The first part will be your sample.
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Old 24th July 2011, 14:40   #8882  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdkreka View Post
edit:
Weird some few times it manage to play the files without crashing.
Yes, here too. But very few times, let's say a 5%.
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Old 24th July 2011, 14:40   #8883  |  Link
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[QUOTE=edit:
Weird some few times it manage to play the files without crashing.[/QUOTE]

Yes I also get this. Sometimes when i play a file that works if i go back to thouse that dont work sometimes they work anyway.

Kind regards.
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Old 24th July 2011, 14:42   #8884  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robpdotcom View Post
You said it's an mkv? Use mkvmerge GUI to split the file:

Under the "Global" tab, check the "enable splitting" box. Choose the "..after this duration" option, set the time to 30s, and set the "max. number of files" to 2. Watch the output directory as mkvmerge runs, and abort the process when the second part starts muxing (it should only take a few seconds). The first part will be your sample.
Thanks, but I think there's no need for this now. We've found a file that crashes to mrdkreka and to me as well, so I guess that will be enough for madshi to find what's going on.
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Old 24th July 2011, 14:52   #8885  |  Link
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madshi:
1. My initial report was not 100% accurate, it seems to be crashing even without instant seeking, but not always (about 80% of the time with some content).
I tried to help narrow down the cause, but the crash happens in a separate thread, so it's not a specific function I call which would make it easier to trace.
Just for the heck of it, since gleb seems to be suffering a similar issue, I disabled 'delay playback start until render queue is full', but it didn't help, it still crashes.
I also switched the H264 decoder to MadVR itself, but it didn't make a difference.

It seems a lot of people are reporting this crash (it manifests differently in ZP vs MPC), the best way to reproduce it in ZP is to load a known problematic file and then press Ctrl+J (reload file) over and over until the race condition is triggered and the crash occurs.


2. Is there a way to configure the madvr renderer with no video playing? What happens is that I create the filter and property page and it show up just fine, but when you click the button to 'edit settings', it returns with this error:
Code:
---------------------------
mad home cinema control...
---------------------------
madVR instance not found.

Please make sure that your firewall doesn't block madVR.

3. Do you feel that the the internal decoders are mature enough? I'd like to (but can't) provide a ZP profile for them as they are inactive by default.
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Last edited by Blight; 24th July 2011 at 14:58.
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Old 24th July 2011, 15:10   #8886  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I hope after reading the above you can agree with me now that it's a stupid thing to do for a renderer to blindly pass RGB32 through untouched.
I only use one display and I always output 0-255 from ffdshow...this is overcomplicating things for me more than anything else. But yes, a foolproof smart VR is a good thing indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Since I can't get it right, anyway, I prefer to stick to the standard. And the standard says that default primaries for Blu-Rays are supposed to be BT.709. And if they are not the mastering studio should pretty please list their primaries in the video bitstream. If they do that, madVR will detect that and auto switch correctly.
Of course, they won't and you know that. Anyway, I'd rather not get into the SMPTE-C/HDTV thingie once more. It's been thoroughly discussed in several threads and my real world experience has also shown me that using the SMPTE-C gamut for US HD and EBU for EU HD provided much more natural colors. Many ppl on the HCFR forum confirmed the exact same findings.

The french site of the ISF also confirmed it...I trust Joe Kane and the CEO of the ISF who both very much apply as industry insiders in my book more than what a standard made for a perfect world should supposedly do. IRL, CRT's are still being used for mastering movies, meaning phosphors based SMPTE-C light source gamuts.

Here's a good link: http://www.glennchan.info/articles/t...olor-space.htm
Quote:
The most popular monitors for high-end reference monitoring are the Sony BVM series CRT monitors, which use SMPTE C phosphors (they conform to SMPTE C primaries). These monitors are not ideal for HD monitoring as modern HD formats (in other words, not the obsolete 1035i formats) call for Rec. 709 primaries. There is sometimes a disconnect between what the standards call for and what actually happens in practice.
Quote:
There is little benefit for them to do these color space conversions correctly. Honestly, nobody will notice. They have little incentive to perform ideal color space conversions (if they even know about it).
That's where it all lies: no one cares! and it's a waste of time and money. Only utterly OCD'ed videophiles care, and as you can imagine they're a tiny little niche. Who wants to pay an extra $1 per disc to get the right colors? 0.001% of the BD buyers? This is a profit driven industry, they will ALWAYS go for the quick buck...look at the first Gladiator BD, it took a lot of whining to have the telecine transfer redone

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Besides, I'm not as convinced as you are that all (or almost all) US Blu-Rays are mastered in SMPTE C and that all (or almost all) EU Blu-Rays are mastered in EBU. If you're very sure about this, do you have a link to AVSForum where "whatever many professionals on AVS" all agree on that?
Here's a good starting point: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1038602
Quote:
It has been reported that certain members believe that SMPTE-C monitors are used by some of the studios and that we have no way of ascertaining when and where they are used
Of course, the studios that are too careless to map gamuts from SMPTE-C to HDTV at the very last stage won't brag about it

It's too bad that the blog of the french CEO of the ISF is currently down, he had posted the correct gamut to use on those Sammy pj's for hundred BD's and as you can guess: mastered in the US=SMPTE-C, mastered in EU=EBU. And he regularly talked to Joe Kane and was taking care of the "free" calibration(using his Minolta spectrophotometer) for the customers of those Sammy pj's. He's also taking care of calibration for mastering houses and so, he knows what happens there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Profiles and rules have long been on my to do list, but there are many other things which come first.
Without automatic rules for the input gamut, there will never be a near-foolproof solution for automatic gamut mapping I'm afraid. You can use HDTV for anything HD if you like, but still 25fps DVD will require EBU and 23.976/29.97 DVD will need SMPTE-C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
What are you talking about? The post I linked to mentioned a consumer digital camera, not broadcast equipment
Yeah, so? mVR was a consumer grade media renderer aimed at playing DVD/BD/HDTV/SDTV last time I checked? If you use non-standard equipment(eg. some smart-ass manufacturer not finding the "Rec. ITU-R BT.709-4" YCbPr decoding matrix big enough to its taste ), I rest my case that it's your job to convert it to 601/709 before slapping it in ffdshow/mVR. Hollywood movies go through a lot of 3DLUT's for this very purpose. But well, if you feel like supporting them out of the box, then it's great news for the ppl who happen to manipulate non-601/709 YCbPr native content I guess, making mVR a semi-professional friendly VR indeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
609 coeffs? What's that?
oops, yeah I was still sleepy...I meant "Rec. ITU-R BT.709-4(Y’ = 0,2126R’ + 0,7152G’ + 0,0722B’)" of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That's correct for that test pattern, right?
Yes, it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Is that really setup correctly? You're telling ffdshow that the input is Full Range. But it isn't, is it?
It's converted from TV to PC using SmoothLevels() in the Avisynth filter of ffdshow, I'm not lying to anyone here. It's genuine 0-255 content to be displayed on a 0-255 display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Does your display need TV levels or PC levels? I mean, really, not tricked/hacked. Of course you need to configure madVR accordingly. I think you used to tell madVR that your display wants TV levels, although it really wants PC levels? Do you still have it setup that way? That won't work for v0.69. No tricks, please. You need to setup both ffdshow and madVR *correctly*.
I did set them correctly, now that 0.69 has smartened up: I've set my display as 0-255 in mVR and same goes for ffdshow.

I used to lie about it in 0.67 coz otherwise this option would process a TV>PC conversion, considering that mVR didn't ask ffdshow what levels were being output and was assuming 16-235 input at all times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
ffdshow doesn't tell me that, unfortunately, so I have to guess. And since YV12 is *normally* always 16-235, that's what madVR guesses, if there's no indication otherwise.
Well, then a manual option like "assume 0-255 YV12" could save the day

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Do you get correct YV12 results with v0.69 now if you manually switch to PC levels input (Ctrl+Alt+Shift+I)? Of course you also need to configure the madVR display levels setting correctly
OK, I've run a comparison again: http://www.mediafire.com/?jab3oh76jbpvxln

using:
-0-255 RGB32 in HR
-0-255 RGB32 in 0.67(same as HR)
-0-255 RGB32 in 0.69(PC levels are automatically detected from ffdshow, but gamma is way too bright)
-0-255 YV12 in 0.69 and setting the PC levels manually(gamma is slightly too dark)

Ideally the two last ones should look exactly like the two first ones

Last edited by leeperry; 24th July 2011 at 16:43.
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Old 24th July 2011, 18:13   #8887  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Im very pleased with the internal decoders. Seeking is extremely fast now (practically instant) and no image corruption whatsoever. Do you plan to support more codecs since youre already using libav/ffmpeg? That would be great.
For now I'd like to concentrate on h264, VC-1 and MPEG2 because those are IMO the most important codecs, and those are also the codecs I know quite well (on a bitstream level). Maybe some time in the future I might add support for other formats, as well, but now right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdkreka View Post
Can't play these file with the new madVR 0.69, as soon as MPC try to play it, it will crash.
Thanks for the samples. Is this with the internal decoders or with an external decoder? In the latter case: Which one? And which splitter are you using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
The first sample file provided by mrdkreka makes my MPC-HC crashing too. Didn't test the second one as now we have a same file to test, but if you want me to test the second file, please tell me.
I'd rather have a sample from your own crash file, too... Same questions to you: Does the crash happen with the internal decoders or an external decoder (which one) and which splitter are you using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blight View Post
1. My initial report was not 100% accurate, it seems to be crashing even without instant seeking, but not always (about 80% of the time with some content).
I tried to help narrow down the cause, but the crash happens in a separate thread, so it's not a specific function I call which would make it easier to trace.
Just for the heck of it, since gleb seems to be suffering a similar issue, I disabled 'delay playback start until render queue is full', but it didn't help, it still crashes.
I also switched the H264 decoder to MadVR itself, but it didn't make a difference.

It seems a lot of people are reporting this crash (it manifests differently in ZP vs MPC), the best way to reproduce it in ZP is to load a known problematic file and then press Ctrl+J (reload file) over and over until the race condition is triggered and the crash occurs.
I'd be great if I could somehow reproduce this problem. Do you have a sample which crashes often, which you could share with me? Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blight View Post
2. Is there a way to configure the madvr renderer with no video playing?
Not at this time, but I plan to add support for that in a future version. No idea when, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blight View Post
3. Do you feel that the the internal decoders are mature enough? I'd like to (but can't) provide a ZP profile for them as they are inactive by default.
I was hoping to get a bit more feedback here in the forum. From what I've heard until now it seems that the decoders are working pretty well now. I plan to enable them by default in the next build.
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Old 24th July 2011, 18:19   #8888  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Of course, they won't and you know that. Anyway, I'd rather not get into the SMPTE-C/HDTV thingie once more. It's been thoroughly discussed in several threads and my real world experience has also shown me that using the SMPTE-C gamut for US HD and EBU for EU HD provided much more natural colors. Many ppl on the HCFR forum confirmed the exact same findings.

The french site of the ISF also confirmed it...I trust Joe Kane and the CEO of the ISF who both very much apply as industry insiders in my book more than what a standard made for a perfect world should supposedly do. IRL, CRT's are still being used for mastering movies, meaning phosphors based SMPTE-C light source gamuts.

It's too bad that the blog of the french CEO of the ISF is currently down, he had posted the correct gamut to use on those Sammy pj's for hundred BD's and as you can guess: mastered in the US=SMPTE-C, mastered in EU=EBU. And he regularly talked to Joe Kane and was taking care of the "free" calibration(using his Minolta spectrophotometer) for the customers of those Sammy pj's. He's also taking care of calibration for mastering houses and so, he knows what happens there.
Well, I'll just reiterate what I said when you first brought up this topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
You'll find some food for thoughts in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1038602
I've just read this thread from beginning to end, and have not reached your conclusions. It seems the general consensus is that HD material is in fact mastered for 709 gamut. According to most professionals in this thread, they're using SMPTE-C monitors when mastering, but at the end of the chain (after the SMPTE-C monitor) there is always a gamut conversion to 709 using a 3dlut. Most of the thread is about whether it is possible to properly grade video material using a monitor with insufficient gamut ; but this discussion has nothing to do with the fact that, in the end, the result is always meant to be displayed using 709 gamut.

Because of this, I think it is best to follow the standard and use 709 gamut for HD content.
I guess this discussion will never end until we hear from the actual personnel of major mastering houses. Which will probably never happen, so this looks like an infinite loop to me. madshi applied the "When in doubt, follow the standard" principle, and I think that's for the best.

Last edited by e-t172; 24th July 2011 at 18:22.
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Old 24th July 2011, 18:32   #8889  |  Link
madshi
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Those of you who have crashes, can you please try this special build to see if it fixes the issue?

http://madshi.net/madVR69test.zip
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Old 24th July 2011, 18:33   #8890  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Thanks for the samples. Is this with the internal decoders or with an external decoder? In the latter case: Which one? And which splitter are you using?
It is external decoders, where I'm using the latest CCCP beta build(2011-07-22). Since I'm using CCCP that means my splitter is "Haali Media Splitter".

edit:
Just tried the special build, so far it is working and haven't crashed yet with those files

Last edited by mrdkreka; 24th July 2011 at 18:37.
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Old 24th July 2011, 18:41   #8891  |  Link
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Do the internal decoders support multithreading?
Up to now I've only watched a 40 min tv show and didn't notice any corruption while normal playback and seeking.
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Old 24th July 2011, 18:46   #8892  |  Link
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Do the internal decoders support multithreading?
Yes, they support the whole shebang. It's the latest libav/ffmpeg version, just 1 day old, with all multi-threading options activated. And of course with MPEG2 4:2:2 decoding, h264 4:4:4 decoding and 9bit and 10bit h264 decoding etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdkreka View Post
Just tried the special build, so far it is working and haven't crashed yet with those files
Sounds good!

@cyberlolo, Budtz: Are your crashes gone, too?

@Blight, how about your crashes?
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Old 24th July 2011, 18:57   #8893  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yes, they support the whole shebang. It's the latest libav/ffmpeg version, just 1 day old, with all multi-threading options activated. And of course with MPEG2 4:2:2 decoding, h264 4:4:4 decoding and 9bit and 10bit h264 decoding etc...


Sounds good!

@cyberlolo, Budtz: Are your crashes gone, too?

@Blight, how about your crashes?
Yup they seem to be gone. Very nice work
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Old 24th July 2011, 19:10   #8894  |  Link
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I have been having some crashes with MPC's Remember File position option, and I am glad to report that I can't reproduce them anymore. Good work.
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Old 24th July 2011, 19:12   #8895  |  Link
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Happy to hear that! Will release a new official build later today or maybe tomorrow...
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Old 24th July 2011, 19:19   #8896  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yes, they support the whole shebang. It's the latest libav/ffmpeg version, just 1 day old, with all multi-threading options activated. And of course with MPEG2 4:2:2 decoding, h264 4:4:4 decoding and 9bit and 10bit h264 decoding etc...


Sounds good!

@cyberlolo, Budtz: Are your crashes gone, too?

@Blight, how about your crashes?
Yep, crashes are gone here too, but freezes are still there with some other files. Are those log files that I posted before useful for finding the problem?

I use CoreAVC 2.0 and last version of Haali and MPC-HC. FYI, if I open that files with KMPlayer, everything is fine. Freezes only happen with MPC-HC.
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Old 24th July 2011, 19:23   #8897  |  Link
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Not sure if I said before, but the seekbar does not appear when I play a DVD in fullscreen. Using 0.69 and Microsoft DTV-DVD
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Old 24th July 2011, 19:38   #8898  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Yep, crashes are gone here too, but freezes are still there with some other files. Are those log files that I posted before useful for finding the problem?

I use CoreAVC 2.0 and last version of Haali and MPC-HC. FYI, if I open that files with KMPlayer, everything is fine. Freezes only happen with MPC-HC.
Hmmmm... The v0.69 log stops after just 153 milliseconds of logging. That's weird. Also, the code location where it stops logging is 100% identical to v0.66. Can you create another log from the freeze with v0.69? Let MPC-HC sit frozen for 10 seconds before closing it down. Maybe that helps getting the log to work better. Also try disabling the two options "pause playback until render queue is full" and "run presentation in separate thread", just to make sure they're not causing the freeze you're seeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
Not sure if I said before, but the seekbar does not appear when I play a DVD in fullscreen. Using 0.69 and Microsoft DTV-DVD
You mean the madVR exclusive mode seekbar? To be honest, I'm not really done anything to help with DVD playback. I'm even surprised it works at all. But then I don't know why the seekbar shouldn't show. It should work just fine, in theory at least.
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Old 24th July 2011, 19:52   #8899  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmmm... The v0.69 log stops after just 153 milliseconds of logging. That's weird. Also, the code location where it stops logging is 100% identical to v0.66. Can you create another log from the freeze with v0.69? Let MPC-HC sit frozen for 10 seconds before closing it down. Maybe that helps getting the log to work better. Also try disabling the two options "pause playback until render queue is full" and "run presentation in separate thread", just to make sure they're not causing the freeze you're seeing.
Okay, here is the log. I've disabled "pause playback until render queue is full" (I had already disabled the other one), waited for more than 30 seconds, and on the second 15 (aprox), the movie audio started, but the screen remained completely black. Also, MPC-HC was unresponsive, so I had to kill the process.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CFZZNROG

Last edited by cyberlolo; 24th July 2011 at 20:00.
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Old 24th July 2011, 19:54   #8900  |  Link
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Well, I'll just reiterate what I said when you first brought up this topic
I got it the first time you said it, and I don't agree w/ either your observations or your conclusions(and yes, I read the AVS thread in full). Also, you don't seem to have run a single real world experiment on your end...which is rather odd, as we're talking about subjective opinions here, considering that the companies that are too careless to abide by the true standard won't be telling anyone.

madshi has made it clear that user-based gamut mapping automatic rules were not planned anytime soon, and I've got a perfectly working Avisynth kludge so this is just fine. Keep on believing what you want based on zero real world experiment if that can comfort you. I've personally chosen to trust what my brain tells me and what a lot of highly knowledgeable industry insiders are willing to share w/ anyone open-minded enough to listen: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL101766
Quote:
A feature unique to the RSVP2 is a "Color Gamut" menu with options for Wide, RS1, or RS2. This enables the operator to easily shift the output color space of the processor to match the SMPTE-C broadcast and telecine mastering standards most commonly used in production today. Color space is remapped inside the processor with a 3x3 "Look Up Table" (LUT) through a series of complex algorithms utilizing 14-bit processing to ensure accurate color reproduction on either the DLA-RS1X or DLA-RS2U without additional contouring in the image.
One would guess that the pro department of JVC would know what's being "most commonly" used in production environments?

http://www.hitechreview.com/tv/jvc-e...processor/308/
Quote:
A 14-bit processor allows for color space remapping to SMPTE-C equaling the current telecine mastering standard
I could provide a zillion links really, coz pros know how it goes: http://www.quora.com/Is-there-such-a...-HD-television
Quote:
Blu-ray movies are color-corrected to be viewed with SMPTE 170M/240M primaries (also known as SMPTE-C); broadcast HDTV is generally supposed to be viewed with Rec. 709 primaries
I've only repeated myself coz madshi was asking for it, as I've got nothing to sell here..and I do have a working kludge to get what I want anyway

Last edited by leeperry; 24th July 2011 at 20:45.
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