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Old 23rd February 2013, 21:51   #17701  |  Link
yok833
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So if I understand well the best way to play a 23.976 fps movie if you have a good tv/pc, is to use reclock to switch at 24 fps and then set the tv at 96hz (of course if the tv acccept this frequency)? On my HD 6850 I also have a 23hz mode, is it another good option to play 23.976 content?

Last edited by yok833; 23rd February 2013 at 22:02.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 21:56   #17702  |  Link
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On my screen
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is Absolutely doing viewing by the unpleasant.
Because of it the image twitches, as mad advancing a shot forward, back.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 22:02   #17703  |  Link
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FRC causes frames to drop in windowed mode sometimes and the only fix is to resize the window.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 22:08   #17704  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
So if I understand well the best way to play a 23.976 fps movie if you have a good tv/pc, is to use reclock to switch at 24 fps and then set the tv at 96hz (of course if the tv acccept this frequency)?
Yes. FRC is for the people that don't have sets that properly handle 24p.
Quote:
On my HD 6850 I also have a 23hz mode, is it another good option to play 23.976 content?
It doesn't really matter since you use ReClock, but use 23Hz instead. 23Hz is actually (more or less) 23.976, and 24Hz is actually 24. AMD/ATI cards are usually fairly close to 23.976, but some GPUs (Intel/Nvidia) require you to make custom resolutions to get close to (or sometimes right on) 23.976.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
FRC causes frames to drop in windowed mode sometimes and the only fix is to resize the window.
I noticed the same thing. Seemed to be better with 0.86.1 though.

Last edited by rahzel; 23rd February 2013 at 22:14.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 22:25   #17705  |  Link
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What would be best settings to change for 2560x1440 ips monitor ?

Last edited by olvidado; 24th February 2013 at 07:58.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 22:54   #17706  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post
It does. But I think he means that he switched his HTPC to 24Hz and had his VT50 set to 96Hz, but now he just uses 60Hz with FRC on. Even though my ST50 doesn't have a 96Hz option, it does accept 24p... I also used to switch to 24Hz, but now I just leave it at 60Hz with FRC on.

Outputting 24Hz with FRC on isn't the best setup for film... it's better to leave it at 60Hz. If your set can properly handle 24p (96Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz etc.,) it may be better to output 24Hz without FRC on. Outputting 60Hz from your PC and playing film with FRC on shouldn't cause any flickering vs having it off.
Yeah my Panny G20 plasma supports 96Hz internally (though it will always show 24Hz even if I output close to 23.976Hz from a custom res of Nvidia output). Which might be why it's smoother than 60Hz with FRC on.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 22:57   #17707  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
So if I understand well the best way to play a 23.976 fps movie if you have a good tv/pc, is to use reclock to switch at 24 fps and then set the tv at 96hz (of course if the tv acccept this frequency)? On my HD 6850 I also have a 23hz mode, is it another good option to play 23.976 content?
From my understanding your TV is not actually doing 23Hz but taking the 23Hz signal from the HTPC and repeating the frames 4 times to get 96Hz. But it won't show that on the display it will just say 24Hz most likely or 24p mode.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 23:11   #17708  |  Link
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Tried FRC with 1080p23 and 720p23 video on 1080p60 display.
Good news, 24 picture is finally smooth (my TV does 24/60 pulldown) and my 7750 handles FRC/Jinc3 AR/linear light no problem and present time is still perfect (~1ms).
Bad news, picture looks a bit soft.
Hmmm... I guess I can buy it.
Bravo madshi!

Last edited by Qaq; 24th February 2013 at 09:48. Reason: typo
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Old 23rd February 2013, 23:15   #17709  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddball View Post
From my understanding your TV is not actually doing 23Hz but taking the 23Hz signal from the HTPC and repeating the frames 4 times to get 96Hz. But it won't show that on the display it will just say 24Hz most likely or 24p mode.
Ya, for sets that properly support 24p (ie have refresh rate that is an even multiple of 24) each of the ~24 frames will be displayed x amount of times per second. So if your set supports 24p, FRC isn't really necessary.
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Old 24th February 2013, 01:35   #17710  |  Link
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Madshi:
There are still out of order frames appearing in v0.86.1 both on seek and on regular playback when the GPU usage hits 100% (by sapping it with a separate GPU app like firefox with GPU accel enabled).
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Old 24th February 2013, 04:09   #17711  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddball View Post
Yeah my Panny G20 plasma supports 96Hz internally (though it will always show 24Hz even if I output close to 23.976Hz from a custom res of Nvidia output). Which might be why it's smoother than 60Hz with FRC on.
It is a different story about 48 / 72 / 96 Hz pixel driving on PDP if compared to CRT / LCD --- panasonic-2012-plasma-2500hz-ffd-explanation-attempt

It is also the different design between Pioneer Kuro and Panasonic NeoPlasma although recent Panasonic's PDP has been integrated with some Kuro / ALiS panel's design.

The ST50 / GT50 / VT50 panels supports 3 different brightness per driving. 0% / 25% / 100%. So it can create even more color levels than the older X50 / U50 600Hz driving one.

As I know, the Pioneer Kuro panel has the different mechanism to remove motion blur. Each pixel is actually divided into several spatial sub-pixel regions. If the pixel's color change is too big, it chooses the mode to display the color at the 1st temporal sub-pixel time. At other sub-pixel times, pixel is not displayed. The pixels with smaller temporal color difference, it still uses the regular driving mechanism to maintain best color accuracy and to prevent flicking.

Last edited by pie1394; 24th February 2013 at 04:12.
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:59   #17712  |  Link
corporalgator
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I've come around: FRC is definitely where it's at. My display, though, does 60.00038hz once it settles in and I get 1 frame repeat every 41.74 seconds. No drops ever. Nothing I can change in reclock makes a difference. Is that how it is supposed to work?
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Old 24th February 2013, 08:47   #17713  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corporalgator View Post
I get 1 frame repeat every 41.74 seconds. No drops ever. Nothing I can change in reclock makes a difference. Is that how it is supposed to work?
I guess not. I have hours in "frame repeat". 23 video on 60 display, ReClock/Auto(yellow) + FRC.
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:52   #17714  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugmen0t View Post
With your general FRC approach the blended frames are generated at irregular points in time, right? Wouldn't it be beneficial to have a fixed pattern like e.g. repetition, blend, repetition, blend, ... at least when using ReClock?
Irregular points in time? Not really...

A fixed pattern would work only for very specific circumstances. The madVR solution works for all situations.

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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Maybe I was a little oversensitive. Now in a non darkened room I don't really notice it anymore. I guess it's again a "broken source", maybe the effect just naturally increases a little with FRC.
Well, FRC should look good in a darkened room, too. If you find samples where FRC on looks noticeably worse than FRC off in a typical 23-25fps@60Hz situation, then please let me know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I noticed that display mode changer still changes to 59.94Hz for 23.976fps videos even though FRC is set to be always enabled.
Wouldn't it make sense to change its logic that it doesn't change resolution with FRC?
No. If you don't want it to change resolution then disable the display mode changer. It makes no sense to disable this option behind the back of the user although he clearly has activated it.

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Originally Posted by TheElix View Post
You, sir, are a wizard and a messiah of HTPC world!
That's too high praise, but thanks nevertheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niyawa View Post
I see, thanks. But if rebooting doesn't solve the problem (without FSE) isn't there anything more we could do? Just in case.
Make sure Aero is turned on. If it is and you still have tearing, something is broken. Either the GPU or the GPU drivers or the OS. You could try installing a different GPU driver version. But this all doesn't really have much to do with madVR. Aero is not supposed to ever tear. If it does, then it can't be madVR's fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by druneau View Post
Is it possible to run the SmoothMotion madTestPatternSource at a user specified fps?

I tried just renaming one to SmoothMotion120.ytp as a test and it defaulted to 23p.

The other thing I was wondering, I ran 24p side by side with 60p in another player because I wanted to explain to someone the difference between having more source images vs smoothness etc...

But to my surprise the bars were not scrolling at the same speed. I'm guessing this was intentional/side effect of the implementation. It's probably not an easy switch, especially if you would have to generate different source material. But I might be helpful to have the different SmoothMotion test patterns moving at the same overall speed?
Custom fps is currently not supported. The same speed is impossible because 24.000 is by design faster than 23.976 and I can't correct for that because the test pattern can scroll only by full 1 pixel sizes minimum. If by same speed you mean the exact same test pattern, just running slower or faster based on fps, then yes, that would be possible, but I don't really see the big benefit. The test pattern runs slower for 50fps (and higher) because if I used the 23-25fps test pattern for 50-60fps, it would run crazy fast. Too fast too make sense. Also, the 50-60fps test pattern has the bottom two bands un-blurred, to allow testing for sharpness loss better. The 23-25fps pattern has all bands except for the lowest blurred, because otherwise there would have been stuttering due to the low fps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oddball View Post
Madshi is xy-vsfilter work still in progress for high def subs? Also is some form of motion compensation on the cards for the future? I'd like to see motion compensation with some form of control element to it (My TV's is one setting only and it's horrid).
xy-vsfilter is still in the works, AFAIK, but it's moving slower than I had hoped. No motion compensation planned at this point in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shimaflarex View Post
I do get more dropped frames with 0.86.1, smooth motion turned on, new exclusive mode.

Using "use a separate device for presentation", my render queue seems to get stuck on 0-3/8, and I get dropped frames all the time. If I pause the video, it goes to 0-8 / 8, but it quickly drops to 0-3 / 8 on playback.

Now, without "use a separate device for presentation", something very weird happens. The render queue stays on 5-6/8 on playback, but if I pause the video, click on Edit Settings on madVR preferences, click Ok without changing anything, and unpause the video...the render queue gets stuck on 0-3 / 8. If I just open the madVR preferences dialog and close it without clicking on Edit Settings, I don't have this issue.

Edit: Hm, the render queue does seem to get stuck on 0-3 after a while, even if I don't open the Edit Settings dialog. Opening it is however a sure way to trigger this.

On madVR 0.86, I don't have this issues, just out of order frames with "use a separate device for presentation" turned on and the present queue randomly going to zero when it is off.

Edit 2: Setting my flush settings to Flush/Don't/Don't/Don't and disabling "use separated device for presentation" seems to solve my issue on 0.86.1.
Well, if your render queue goes empty, that means that your GPU is simply not fast enough for the settings you've chosen. I've *had* to modify the flush settings to make the artifacts go away for frame blending. I didn't think it would harm performance, but if it does, there's really not much I can do about it. You can modify the flush settings, of course, but it could result in artifacts showing up again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe42 View Post
I noticed that with 0.86.1 I get continuous dropped frames on the SmoothMotion50 test file (60Hz monitor), but no dropped frames on the other SmoothMotion files.

With 0.86.0 I did not get any dropped frames, not even with the 50Hz test file.

So something changed for the worse with 0.86.1
The 50 test pattern is more demanding than the 23-25 test patterns, of course (twice as much work to do for madVR). The 59 and 60 test patterns probably run with smooth motion frc turned off on your PC, that's why they run without frame drops for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oddball View Post
Been testing a few things. 23.976fps with smooth motion forced on at 24Hz causes a ghosting effect kind of like interlacing. 23.976fps at 60Hz causes flickering. You can especially notice it on scrolling end credits. Looks like it's no good for me and I may as well stick with 24Hz smooth motion off for now.
If your TV can do 24Hz well then there's no need to use smooth motion FRC.

Anyway, do you have the first "trade quality for performance" option unchecked? Please try that, it might reduce the flickering you're seeing with 24fps@60Hz. If you still see flickering with that option unchecked, please upload a sample for me to look at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
If I rapidly seek through the file with the right arrow button then madVR still freezes in exclusive mode but when it goes back to windowed mode it plays like normal. At that point if I try to fullscreen it back to exclusive mode I get a black screen and have to restart the file in order to use exclusive mode. This is with v0.86.1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Yes, I can confirm that. I was only able to trigger it with FRC on though, FRC off still seems to behave like 0.85.8. Sometimes if it happens, it looks like an endless loop of 2 frames that are shown at the same time (endless flickering).
Where is the bug entry in the madVR bug tracker (with an attached zipped log file) for this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kasper93 View Post
I need to ask about one thing.
If I use reclock should I check "slave reference clock to audio"? Or leave it unchecked. For best compatibility with madVR.
Depends on whether you get video drops/repeats with this option checked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
1) Have I need "smooth motion" frame rate changer (FRC) if I have 23.976fps movie with a 120hz display monitor?
If you can set your display to an even multiple of 23.976 then no, you don't need FRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
4) in trade quality for performance, I have "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" turn on by default, Must I turn off or not? (I have 570)
You should uncheck all those "trade quality" options, if your GPU is fast enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
5) If I use 3:2 inverse telecine filter like decomb, smooth motion is it compatible or not?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
6) If I turn on smooth motion, in windows mode I have 48fps instead of 24 fps in movie (using fraps), is it normal?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
So if I understand well the best way to play a 23.976 fps movie if you have a good tv/pc, is to use reclock to switch at 24 fps and then set the tv at 96hz (of course if the tv acccept this frequency)? On my HD 6850 I also have a 23hz mode, is it another good option to play 23.976 content?
Not sure what you mean "use reclock to switch". Switch what? If your TV can do 23.976Hz or 95.904Hz (or 47.952Hz or 71.928Hz) well then yes, that's what you should use. Whether 23.976Hz or 95.904Hz is better to use with your TV nobody can say. Simply test it yourself and choose what looks better to your eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by secvensor View Post
On my screen
CRT 1600x1200@100MHz
smooth motion
is Absolutely doing viewing by the unpleasant.
Because of it the image twitches, as mad advancing a shot forward, back.
Your English is very hard to understand. If you have a CRT, it can probably do any refresh rate you want, can it not? If so, just set your CRT to use an even multiple of the source framerate and you don't need to use madVR's smooth motion frc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
FRC causes frames to drop in windowed mode sometimes and the only fix is to resize the window.
Are any of the queues going empty if that happens? Maybe your GPU is too slow? Maybe your queue size is too small? You've given me almost zero information to work with, so there's not much I can say here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by olvidado View Post
What would be best settings to change for 2560x1440 ips monitor ?
That's such a broad question that I don't know how to reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blight View Post
Madshi:
There are still out of order frames appearing in v0.86.1 both on seek and on regular playback when the GPU usage hits 100% (by sapping it with a separate GPU app like firefox with GPU accel enabled).
I can't reproduce that on a seek on my PC. Which GPU are you using? How about you other guys? Does any of you still have "out of order" frames when seeking with v0.86.1 with smooth motion frc activated? @Blight, are you using the default flush settings? (flush, flush & wait (sleep), don't, don't)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by corporalgator View Post
I've come around: FRC is definitely where it's at. My display, though, does 60.00038hz once it settles in and I get 1 frame repeat every 41.74 seconds. No drops ever. Nothing I can change in reclock makes a difference. Is that how it is supposed to work?
Do you *actually* get frame drops reported in the OSD? The "1 frame repeat every ..." is just a rough estimate. The only thing that really counts is the "dropped frames" counter. That one really counts the number of frames actually dropped during playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmone View Post
FYI - for my testing I created a series of test patterns years ago - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1276064/1920x1080-24-25-30fps-test-patterns-detect-pulldown-issues
How is your post madVR related? Neither "madVR" nor "frc" nor "smooth motion" appear in your text at all. It seems to me you've just copy-pasted some old post of yours without taking the time to put it into any context. Please either remove your post, or at least make the effort to write some new text to describe what your post has to do with recent madVR topics. For example, if you think your test patterns would be useful for testing madVR's FRC, then please explain why and how, and maybe also report your own results when testing your patterns with madVR's FRC. Thanks.

Last edited by madshi; 24th February 2013 at 11:54.
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Old 24th February 2013, 12:01   #17715  |  Link
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No probs - deleted post. Will test more and repost in context if it adds value.
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Old 24th February 2013, 12:20   #17716  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I can't reproduce that on a seek on my PC. Which GPU are you using? How about you other guys? Does any of you still have "out of order" frames when seeking with v0.86.1 with smooth motion frc activated? @Blight, are you using the default flush settings? (flush, flush & wait (sleep), don't, don't)?
I can say it happens to me sometimes as well, but not nearly as much as 0.86.0
I've been playing with it to try to figure out if there's anything that makes it happen more often than not but I can't seem to find anything. All I know is that if I skip around long enough, it will happen eventually. But it might happen on the first skip, or it might take 10 skips after opening a file. It also doesn't seem to dance around between two frames for a few ms either anymore, it just shows 1 frame from.. somewhere, and then proceeds to play back normally. It's very non intrusive considering it rarely happens, and when it does, it's 1 frame (seemingly anyway).
This is with default flush settings, windowed mode.
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Old 24th February 2013, 12:31   #17717  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmone View Post
No probs - deleted post. Will test more and repost in context if it adds value.
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farfie View Post
I can say it happens to me sometimes as well, but not nearly as much as 0.86.0
I've been playing with it to try to figure out if there's anything that makes it happen more often than not but I can't seem to find anything. All I know is that if I skip around long enough, it will happen eventually. But it might happen on the first skip, or it might take 10 skips after opening a file. It also doesn't seem to dance around between two frames for a few ms either anymore, it just shows 1 frame from.. somewhere, and then proceeds to play back normally. It's very non intrusive considering it rarely happens, and when it does, it's 1 frame (seemingly anyway).
This is with default flush settings, windowed mode.
Ah, I see. Problems which are hard to reproduce are always hard to fix...
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Old 24th February 2013, 12:44   #17718  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Where is the bug entry in the madVR bug tracker (with an attached zipped log file) for this?
Itīs going to be very unspecific and I am not sure if that will help you too much to find the actual bug. It is extremely hard to trigger and I tried it with several movies for like 20 minutes. If I encounter it again I am going to make you the entry, make it as detailed as possible and attach a log, too. If you want me to make an entry, anyway, I am going to. No problem at all. Just wanted to confirm that something (seek dependant, doesnīt ever happen in pure playback) isnīt quite right in the code, which could also have an effect on other things.

Another thing, just to make you aware, because I am not sure that this is a bug, but rather an observation:

You wrote that with 0.86.1 you needed to modify the FRC code with an additional flush somewhere in the code if I understood you correctly. Is that change related to the custom 4 flush options or is that an additional flush that we donīt see/we canīt modify?

I am asking, because, when using FRC, you now have to (only if youīre not using the default flush settings) at least use one flush on the first 3 flush options or youīre going to have severe stuttering. If you donīt use FRC, "donīt flush" on every flush option works perfectly fine. 0.86.1 didnīt change anything in that regard, you still have to use a flush somewhere on the first 3 options. Since thereīs no seperate flush settings for the FRC path to modify, using fully custom flush settings is not possible anymore when youīre also using FRC for some movies.

What I was asking myself:
Did you really need to modify the FRC path with an additional flush, when we still have to use one flush in the flush options, anyway for FRC to work correctly? Are you aware of that? Just to give you a heads up.

I can go into more detail if something is unclear or put that into the bug tracker if you want to.

Last edited by iSunrise; 24th February 2013 at 13:56.
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Old 24th February 2013, 12:51   #17719  |  Link
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So far 0.86.1 fixes all the problems I had with 0.86.
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Old 24th February 2013, 13:32   #17720  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ah, I see. Problems which are hard to reproduce are always hard to fix...
Actually.. I spoke too soon. Before I was only trying 720p content, and now after trying 1080p, it is happening very often again.

But, when I said earlier in the thread where I was getting many framedrops without "use a separate device for presentation" enabled in 0.86.0, I can now disable it without getting framedrops (you must have fixed it). Along with confirming that fix, the seek bug seems to have completely gone away as well with "use a separate device for presentation" disabled. Perhaps this could be our culprit? I'm trying to watch as many types of content as I can, and I hate to speak too soon, but.. I can't help myself
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