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Old 7th December 2010, 10:17   #5001  |  Link
robpdotcom
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According to Madshi:

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
With Blu-Ray the luma (brightness) information is stored in 1920x1080 pixels, however, the chroma (color) information is only stored in 960x540 pixels. So someone somewhere has to upscale those 960x540 chroma information to 1920x1080.
Also worth noting, as there seems to be some confusion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If you display the source 1:1 in its original size, all luma scaling is turned off. The whole scaling options in the settings dialog have no effect in that situation. If you want to rescale the original resolution to something else, all the various filters have their own advantages and disadvantages, as I already said. E.g. Lanczos is the sharpest of the bunch, but also adds a lot of ringing to the image. Scaling is always a balance act between sharpness, aliasing and ringing. Just play with the filters and choose which looks best to your eyes...
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Last edited by robpdotcom; 7th December 2010 at 10:24.
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Old 7th December 2010, 15:59   #5002  |  Link
dansrfe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
dansrfe - I was under the impression that chroma has to be upsampled when expanding from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4.
Yes, that's true. Mistake on my part.
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Old 7th December 2010, 18:46   #5003  |  Link
JarrettH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I've done a bit more testing, I still very much enjoy the softest chroma + sharpest luma combo...it gives the most stunning PQ to my eyes

upscaling in ffdshow: bicubic 0.0 for chroma, spline for luma

in mVR: softcubic100 for chroma, spline3 for luma up/down

I use CRT and DLP, no LCD..
I usually go between Mitchell (luma upscaling) + SoftCubic70 (Chroma upscaling) for sources that weren't encoded great to Catmull (luma upscaling) for nice sources, sharp sources. How can you even tell a difference changing chroma upscaling? It's much harder to see...

Last edited by JarrettH; 7th December 2010 at 18:56.
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Old 7th December 2010, 19:40   #5004  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
How can you even tell a difference changing chroma upscaling? It's much harder to see...
I'm colorblind, so we do see colors differently...and I usually use a very colorful cartoon for those tests.

If I don't use the "softest chroma/sharpest luma" combo, I get the feeling that they interfere w/ one another. I'll try to come back w/ some screenshots ^^

PS: ah well, my Bronzés.mkv red text on black background test pattern(that was used in the OP) clearly shows that softcubic100 is much softer than spline3...breaking news



But what I'm seeing in that cartoon doesn't really seem to appear on random static screenshots...basically it kills all the chroma noise and allows the luma to look much clearer and sharper. Otherwise what I see is the chroma noise interfering w/ the luma, rejoicing into a mushy PQ when put in motion..maybe my color blindness condition amplifies this, but anyway I enjoy having a noise-free chroma together w/ a very sharp and clear luma \o/

Last edited by leeperry; 7th December 2010 at 22:40.
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Old 7th December 2010, 23:32   #5005  |  Link
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Hm, for some reason madVR drops frames like crazy as soon as I go full screen.
My source is 1080p x264 and my display is also at 1080p so I guess only chroma needs scaling in this situation. Funny thing is it doesn't matter which scaling algorithm I choose, madVR drops frames with every algorithm and it starts doing it as soon as I go fullscreen. In windowed mode playback is smooth.

The problem only seems to be with 1080p material. 720p doesn't drop frames and I can run with spline3 on everything without issues.

Does anybody else have this problem?
My guess is this has something to do with exclusive mode...

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Old 8th December 2010, 02:39   #5006  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutjong View Post
My guess is this has something to do with exclusive mode...
Then try to disable it.
And check your V-sync (should be application controlled or off) and anti-alising and anistropic filtering modes (they should be application controlled or off --> a forced AA mode, like Morfological-AA with ATI cards, can kill madVR!)
And check your GPU and CPU usage during the full screen playback...
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Old 8th December 2010, 05:41   #5007  |  Link
Razoola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutjong View Post
Hm, for some reason madVR drops frames like crazy as soon as I go full screen.
My source is 1080p x264 and my display is also at 1080p so I guess only chroma needs scaling in this situation. Funny thing is it doesn't matter which scaling algorithm I choose, madVR drops frames with every algorithm and it starts doing it as soon as I go fullscreen. In windowed mode playback is smooth.

The problem only seems to be with 1080p material. 720p doesn't drop frames and I can run with spline3 on everything without issues.

Does anybody else have this problem?
My guess is this has something to do with exclusive mode...

My system:
Intel i7 930
Radeon 5850 (Catalyst 10.11)
6 GB RAM
Windows 7 x64
MPC-HC 1.4.2745
Yes I have had this problem where for some reason the resizers are slower in exclusive mode compared to windowed mode when the times should be identical speeds. You can confirm this by looking at the queue stats in both modes.

I have mentioned this to madshi and he was not sure why it was happening but suggested to wait until his exclusive mode code was complete.
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Old 8th December 2010, 15:41   #5008  |  Link
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Kind of weird but I had a dream that madshi had updated this thread with a new madVR. Only just a dream I guess.
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Old 8th December 2010, 18:08   #5009  |  Link
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Such dreams can be labeled as "wet dreams" ... and sadly after "puberty" they become more rare
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Old 8th December 2010, 18:18   #5010  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Kind of weird but I had a dream that madshi had updated this thread with a new madVR. Only just a dream I guess.
give us 0.35 or the bunny gets it
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Old 8th December 2010, 18:19   #5011  |  Link
kutjong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
Then try to disable it.
And check your V-sync (should be application controlled or off) and anti-alising and anistropic filtering modes (they should be application controlled or off --> a forced AA mode, like Morfological-AA with ATI cards, can kill madVR!)
And check your GPU and CPU usage during the full screen playback...
Ah, I mistakenly had AA and AF enabled. After setting them to application preference there are no dropped frames! Such a noob mistake...
Thanks!
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Old 8th December 2010, 18:29   #5012  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutjong View Post
Ah, I mistakenly had AA and AF enabled. After setting them to application preference there are no dropped frames! Such a noob mistake...
Thanks!
I use Ati tray tool that initializes a "No AA & AF profile" every time I use MPC-HC and after its use, reverts to former settings. Easy as eating pie.
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Old 9th December 2010, 02:41   #5013  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
How can you even tell a difference changing chroma upscaling? It's much harder to see...
Having more thoughts about it: we're doing a major upscale on chroma, which will result in a major amount of resizing artifacts...I believe it's encoded at half-res for the reason that the brain isn't too sensitive to chroma resolution? If you look at the two comparisons screenshots I've made, you can see that spline increases the chroma noise drastically...nothing more.



Better hide it than amplify it

Last edited by leeperry; 9th December 2010 at 02:46.
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Old 9th December 2010, 06:17   #5014  |  Link
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What you suggest blurs the chroma though. It is best to upsample chroma so that it is as good a match to the luma information as possible to avoid it bleeding out of the lines or causing other problems.

If you want to eliminate chroma noise, upsampling chroma correctly and then adding noise reduction to that image should give much better results. (but it is best to leave the source as-is)

SoftCubic100 blurs chroma beyond the edges of luma causing colour to bleed out the edges considerably, resulting in desaturated colour.
Spline is not a good choice either as you say. But spline does not look good with anything to me. It looks too processed/artificial from the way it treats the image like it's made up of curves to try and avoid ringing.

Your test does not seem to be ideal as it looks like you are starting with a poor source where even the best chroma upsampling results in a very blurred image.

On proper chroma tests or with better quality sources, Bicubic75 seems to do the best job of upsampling chroma information so that it is a close match to the luma information. Then choose your luma upsampling algorithm depending on how you want the image to look.

For Luma, SoftCubic50 seems truest to the source without adding ringing/sharpening or removing detail/grain.
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Old 10th December 2010, 01:38   #5015  |  Link
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FYI there a a group of us using JR Media Center pushing for the abilility to use madVR as the Video Renderer but it looks like it is not going to happen as one of the devs over there have quoted:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=60810.0
Quote:
Unfortunately madVR is too inflexible - it does not support all video cards, does not support DVD playback, and, more importantly for us, does not work when we using our way of building a DirectShow graph. I am not convinced yet that I should overhaul our video playback engine in order to support the use of madVR. Sorry, maybe some time in the future.
I don't know if madshi is interested in following up with the JR Folk on this.

Thanks
Nathan
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Old 10th December 2010, 01:56   #5016  |  Link
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thanks for the sample leeperry
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Old 10th December 2010, 05:14   #5017  |  Link
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Quote:
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Anyone tried DVDs with MadVR on Windows Vista or preferably Windows XP?

edit: I copied qdvd.dll from my Windows XP desktop PC over to my laptop's Windows 7 installation, and this seems to allow DVDs to be played with the menu. Only thing is Ctrl+J is reporting 'movie unknown fps'.

edit2: movie unknown fps was being reported because I was using MPC-HC's internal MPEG-2 decoder with deinterlacing.
Update: doing this kills Overlay Mixer....
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Old 10th December 2010, 05:23   #5018  |  Link
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Who cares about Overlay Mixer in the first place?
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Old 10th December 2010, 11:28   #5019  |  Link
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Some questions:

Is the madVR project dead? It s been a while since a new version came out so I was just wondering this.

Also, there is a discussion on a forum in my country about standalone BRplayers like the Oppo or Dune player <-> HTPCs

If a HTPC is properly configured with the use of MPC-HC, madVR renderer and FFdshow as codec, will this beat a high-end standalone player?

I get one frame drop every 8-16 ours (calculated by madVR, checked with CTRL+J) with my HTPC and the PQ looks superb to me so how could a standalone player do this better.

One last question:
Am I correct that Fullscreen Autochange refresh rate function in MPC-HC does not work when using madVR as renderer?

Last edited by THX-UltraII; 10th December 2010 at 12:47.
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Old 10th December 2010, 12:09   #5020  |  Link
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Who cares about Overlay Mixer in the first place?
Before madVR exclusive mode, it was the better renderer.

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Is the madVR project dead? It s been a while since a new version came out so I was just wondering this.
No. Search for madshi's posts.
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