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Old 28th October 2016, 08:47   #39881  |  Link
70MM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
image doubling 1080p will scale it to 2160p.
if you do that for a 1080p screen it give you the opportunity to refine the image at 2160p before it get scaled down again. this is quite useful for some filter.

this is called super sampling this is just a different way to process an image. you have to ask your eyes if you want that result or if it is just a waste of GPU power.

this shouldn't be compared to video game supersampling because they are quite different.
Sorry Im not 100% sure what you are saying...
I think you mean this but correct me if Im wrong.

If you use 1080p BDs with Image Doubling only at 1080p, the benefit is lost when it downscales again.....

If you set the video card to 4k + image doubling, then the downscale this is much better than the above....

Am I saying this right or not?

I have a large screen 145" dia scope and doing just 1080p with image doubling looks great to me. When I change the video card to 4K it doesn't seem to look any better than when the card is at 1080 with image doubling...

Your thoughts on this please as Im still trying to get a grip on all this.
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Old 28th October 2016, 12:03   #39882  |  Link
Georgel
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Something is wrong with present times - and I can't pinpoint what. The present time starts low, and grows to 8ms after the video has been playing for a while.

Anyone knows why or how to solve?

EDIT:: Maybe this helps pinpoint the problem.

Using those settings, the problem doesn't seem to appear anymore, but the present time is 0.4 ms, which is a bit high still.

Should I look for another GPU driver?


Last edited by Georgel; 28th October 2016 at 12:16.
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Old 28th October 2016, 12:20   #39883  |  Link
CarlosCaco
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Originally Posted by Georgel View Post


Something is wrong with present times - and I can't pinpoint what. The present time starts low, and grows to 8ms after the video has been playing for a while.

Anyone knows why or how to solve?

EDIT:: Maybe this helps pinpoint the problem.

Using those settings, the problem doesn't seem to appear anymore, but the present time is 0.4 ms, which is a bit high still.

Should I look for another GPU driver?



Try lower the gpu queue you don't need much try the standard 8 should be fine...


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Old 28th October 2016, 12:21   #39884  |  Link
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Perhaps the long CPU and GPU queue sizes (well above the defaults) could be linked to the long present time? Also, you have checked two things that delay playback, maybe that's causing the presentation lag? I'm sure some much more knowledgeable folks will be able to chime in soon. That's just what I noticed.
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Old 28th October 2016, 13:12   #39885  |  Link
Georgel
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Thank you for your help~!

Windowed overlay and desktop composition seem to be related to the problem.

Setting the delay until queu is full will only make the video pause for a second or so when seeking to make sure that the playback queue is full, this helps with less dropped frames when seeking or when opening a file. Still have 3-4 frames dropped when going full screen.
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Old 28th October 2016, 14:14   #39886  |  Link
CarlosCaco
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Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
Thank you for your help~!



Windowed overlay and desktop composition seem to be related to the problem.



Setting the delay until queu is full will only make the video pause for a second or so when seeking to make sure that the playback queue is full, this helps with less dropped frames when seeking or when opening a file. Still have 3-4 frames dropped when going full screen.


Don t seens to be a overlay problem, on the first picture is showing d3d11 windowed fullscreen... overlay mode is d3d9 if you tick the d3d11 overlay do not activate... maybe you could try untick d3d11 and fullscreebn exclusive and try overlay mode... it's a great mode, as you said previously you use a icc profile, in overlay if you enable gpu gamma ramps and enable gamma processing madvr process the icc in 16bit which have greater quality...


Ps: also in the first picture shows you are using dxva2 and the second not... this can be the issue...
also dxva2 native with nvidia its not good with madvr causes some blur on chroma layer... if I was you i give a try to software decoding... even my old i5 2500 can decode hevc 1080p sources 8bit and 10bit... BTW the option delay playback until... don t work with dxva2 native... this also can be the problem




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Last edited by CarlosCaco; 28th October 2016 at 18:38.
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Old 28th October 2016, 17:18   #39887  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
Sorry Im not 100% sure what you are saying...
I think you mean this but correct me if Im wrong.

If you use 1080p BDs with Image Doubling only at 1080p, the benefit is lost when it downscales again.....
No, you can run upscaling refinement after doubling but before downscaling. Running sharpening at a higher resolution and then downscaling often looks better than simply running sharpening at the native resolution. NNEDI3 doubling can also "repair" minor aliasing that might be present in the source. Try SSIM downscaling.

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Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
If you set the video card to 4k + image doubling, then the downscale this is much better than the above....

Am I saying this right or not?
No, generally everything has worse downscaling than madVR. It is better to set your GPU to the native resolution of your screen and do any supersampling with madVR.

Games are different in that they actually render the content at the higher resolution, not just scaling up lower resolution content and then scaling it back down again. The only reason to use super sampling with video, IMO, is to use some of the upscaling refinement options at the doubled resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
I have a large screen 145" dia scope and doing just 1080p with image doubling looks great to me. When I change the video card to 4K it doesn't seem to look any better than when the card is at 1080 with image doubling...

Your thoughts on this please as Im still trying to get a grip on all this.
You do have a 1920x1080 display? As I said above, always output your screen's native resolution from the GPU.
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Old 28th October 2016, 17:32   #39888  |  Link
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Originally Posted by CarlosCaco View Post
Don t seens to be a overlay problem, on the first picture is showing d3d11 windowed fullscreen... overlay mode is d3d9 if you tick the d3d11 overlay do not activate... maybe you could try untick d3d11 and fullscreebn exclusive and try overlay mode... it's a great mode, as you said previously you use a icc profile, in overlay if you enable gpu gamma ramps and enable gamma processing madvr process the icc in 16bit which have greater quality...


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Seems to be no (madVR) problem at all ...
@Georgel is maxing "every" setting and then complaining about 3-4 dropped frames when going to full screen? Come on ...
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Old 28th October 2016, 17:58   #39889  |  Link
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Hi, this might seem like a stupid question. If I switch to windowed overlay (was using D3D11 FSE), could this mode result in output being different? Will I need to create a new 3dlut? (No ICC profile is being used, defaults in MadTPG were used for 3dlut creation - disable videoluts etc).
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Old 28th October 2016, 18:21   #39890  |  Link
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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Hi, this might seem like a stupid question. If I switch to windowed overlay (was using D3D11 FSE), could this mode result in output being different? Will I need to create a new 3dlut? (No ICC profile is being used, defaults in MadTPG were used for 3dlut creation - disable videoluts etc).


Nothing changes, just WTW is clipped but this only improves 3dlut quality


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Old 28th October 2016, 18:25   #39891  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
Sorry Im not 100% sure what you are saying...
I think you mean this but correct me if Im wrong.

If you use 1080p BDs with Image Doubling only at 1080p, the benefit is lost when it downscales again.....

If you set the video card to 4k + image doubling, then the downscale this is much better than the above....

Am I saying this right or not?

I have a large screen 145" dia scope and doing just 1080p with image doubling looks great to me. When I change the video card to 4K it doesn't seem to look any better than when the card is at 1080 with image doubling...

Your thoughts on this please as Im still trying to get a grip on all this.
Try reading the link in my signature. It has all of those answers.

Supersampling (image doubling) is another approach to enhancing a 1080p source. Although, this is not recommended and requires a powerful GPU. Supersampling involves doubling a source to twice its original size, sharpening it, and returning it to its original resolution. The chain would look like this: Image doubling -> Upscaling refinement -> Image downscaling. The hope is applying sharpening to a doubled image will lead to a subtler sharpening effect with fewer artifacts.

High-quality, sharp downscaling with SSIM or Bicubic150 is important to retain as much detail as possible from the larger image.

1080p -> 2160p Supersampling (for high-end GPUs):
  • Chroma: super-xbr100 + AR
  • Image: Jinc3 + AR
  • Double Luma: 2x supersampling - super-xbr100
  • Double Chroma: 2x supersampling - super-xbr100
  • Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + AR
  • Upscaling refinement: SuperRes (3)
  • Artifact removal - Debanding: Medium/High
  • Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
  • Image enhancements: Off
  • Dithering: Ordered
If you prefer to have more control over the application of image sharpening, avoid supersampling and use the first profile. Applying Image enhancements to the native source allows more influence over the final sharpening effect.

Personally, I prefer image enhancements to supersampling with upscaling refinement.

Last edited by Warner306; 28th October 2016 at 18:30.
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Old 28th October 2016, 18:40   #39892  |  Link
CarlosCaco
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Seems to be no (madVR) problem at all ...
@Georgel is maxing "every" setting and then complaining about 3-4 dropped frames when going to full screen? Come on ...
The guy have some peculiar tastes... I like diversity
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Old 28th October 2016, 19:23   #39893  |  Link
digitech
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Try reading the link in my signature. It has all of those answers.

Supersampling (image doubling) is another approach to enhancing a 1080p source. Although, this is not recommended and requires a powerful GPU. Supersampling involves doubling a source to twice its original size, sharpening it, and returning it to its original resolution. The chain would look like this: Image doubling -> Upscaling refinement -> Image downscaling. The hope is applying sharpening to a doubled image will lead to a subtler sharpening effect with fewer artifacts.

High-quality, sharp downscaling with SSIM or Bicubic150 is important to retain as much detail as possible from the larger image.

1080p -> 2160p Supersampling (for high-end GPUs):
  • Chroma: super-xbr100 + AR
  • Image: Jinc3 + AR
  • Double Luma: 2x supersampling - super-xbr100
  • Double Chroma: 2x supersampling - super-xbr100
  • Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + AR
  • Upscaling refinement: SuperRes (3)
  • Artifact removal - Debanding: Medium/High
  • Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
  • Image enhancements: Off
  • Dithering: Ordered
If you prefer to have more control over the application of image sharpening, avoid supersampling and use the first profile. Applying Image enhancements to the native source allows more influence over the final sharpening effect.

Personally, I prefer image enhancements to supersampling with upscaling refinement.
A long time ago wanted to ask to you (since im a normal reader of your madvr settings page) what are your personal preferences for sd, 720p and 1080p movies content played on a 1080p 100" projector, do you recommend to apply super sampling to all content (sd, 720p,1080p). Id love to see your choices for each kind of content cause im overwhelmed with all the choices and combinatios that im freeze to decide which of them gives the better quality for movie playback, btw i have a dedicated HTPC with Windows7 and Nvidia Gtx 970

Last edited by digitech; 28th October 2016 at 19:25.
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Old 28th October 2016, 20:11   #39894  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by digitech View Post
A long time ago wanted to ask to you (since im a normal reader of your madvr settings page) what are your personal preferences for sd, 720p and 1080p movies content played on a 1080p 100" projector, do you recommend to apply super sampling to all content (sd, 720p,1080p). Id love to see your choices for each kind of content cause im overwhelmed with all the choices and combinatios that im freeze to decide which of them gives the better quality for movie playback, btw i have a dedicated HTPC with Windows7 and Nvidia Gtx 970
My preferences are found in the settings page of the link in my signature. I am using a 1080p screen.
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Old 28th October 2016, 20:21   #39895  |  Link
imhh11
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hi Guys,
What setting are you using for 60fps 4k HDR video ?
This is the only thing my GTX1070 cant play.

I have the lastest version Madvr, and lavfilter
Lavfilter set to copyback and 4k hevc checked.
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Old 28th October 2016, 21:42   #39896  |  Link
iSeries
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Nothing changes, just WTW is clipped but this only improves 3dlut quality


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Thanks - is it usual to not get a seek bar with windowed overlay?
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Old 28th October 2016, 21:48   #39897  |  Link
Asmodian
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Thanks - is it usual to not get a seek bar with windowed overlay?
I get a seekbar with windowed overlay, using Zoom Player.
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Old 28th October 2016, 22:10   #39898  |  Link
iSeries
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I get a seekbar with windowed overlay, using Zoom Player.
Odd. I'm using MPC-HC. In all other modes I get a seekbar, but nothing with windowed overlay.
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Old 28th October 2016, 23:39   #39899  |  Link
tony359
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Hi there. I am playing fullHD content on a 720p projector. Windows is set to 1280x720. I'd like to shift to the bottom of the screen cinemascope movies. I tried the black bar auto detection but it does not work, it does not do anything. I have tried several Blu Rays. I've also tried setting Windows to 1080p (the projector then rescales) but still the control does not do anything.
I tried updating to 0.90.24 but no luck. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks
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Old 29th October 2016, 01:29   #39900  |  Link
Georgel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billqs View Post
Perhaps the long CPU and GPU queue sizes (well above the defaults) could be linked to the long present time? Also, you have checked two things that delay playback, maybe that's causing the presentation lag? I'm sure some much more knowledgeable folks will be able to chime in soon. That's just what I noticed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosCaco View Post
Try lower the gpu queue you don't need much try the standard 8 should be fine...


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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosCaco View Post
Don t seens to be a overlay problem, on the first picture is showing d3d11 windowed fullscreen... overlay mode is d3d9 if you tick the d3d11 overlay do not activate... maybe you could try untick d3d11 and fullscreebn exclusive and try overlay mode... it's a great mode, as you said previously you use a icc profile, in overlay if you enable gpu gamma ramps and enable gamma processing madvr process the icc in 16bit which have greater quality...


Ps: also in the first picture shows you are using dxva2 and the second not... this can be the issue...
also dxva2 native with nvidia its not good with madvr causes some blur on chroma layer... if I was you i give a try to software decoding... even my old i5 2500 can decode hevc 1080p sources 8bit and 10bit... BTW the option delay playback until... don t work with dxva2 native... this also can be the problem




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Thanks a lot!

How do I enable software decoding? I'm running a strong enough CPU, but I think I've messed something up along the way. I tried doing DXVA copy-back and sometimes the present times will jump to 10 ms... It wouldn't be a bad thing if it wouldn't cause dropped frames, especially on 60fps materials.




Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosCaco View Post
The guy have some peculiar tastes... I like diversity
I guess most people don't use the same settings and for a good reason . At the same time, my most watched material is drawn and many of it is low resolution or the lineart is a bit thick. Having really strong edge sharpening and thinning helps making the entire image look sharper / like it has a considerably better definition.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nussman View Post
Seems to be no (madVR) problem at all ...
@Georgel is maxing "every" setting and then complaining about 3-4 dropped frames when going to full screen? Come on ...
Totally doing that, my friend!

And yes, I love it!

Sorry if I'm a nuissance, I'm trying to see what is max possible for a GPU at this date and I'm trying to use it at max.

I'm complaining when things like present times have high values and I do wonder if it's normal for render time to be so high or for frames to be skipped sometimes.

It's a fun hobby!

I still actually need advice on many things, I love to experiment / understand / debug. Regardless of if the answer is that I have to lower settings or not, I am curious to know more.

Also, I absolutely love example images that show the differences an algorithm does, really helpful on understand well - what it does.
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