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Old 9th January 2015, 21:03   #28001  |  Link
e-t172
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The problem madshi was referring to, I believe, is the lack of explicit G/FreeSync support in APIs (i.e. Direct3D). Frame presentation APIs were never designed with variable refresh rate in mind, and it's not clear how they can be used to achieve precise and arbitrary (custom) timing of frame presentation. It seems the only known way to do this right now is to "pretend to be slow", i.e. behave like a game that can't keep up, but madshi seems to be reluctant to go this way for various (valid) technical reasons.

In that way, I see the fact that recent Windows versions seem to explictly use G/FreeSync for video playback as a good sign, because that might mean that such APIs (or some form of clarifying documentation) are about to be released.

Last edited by e-t172; 9th January 2015 at 21:09.
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Old 9th January 2015, 22:14   #28002  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
However:


It seems that not only is FreeSync more flexible, but according to various CES articles, the first FreeSync monitors are limited to 40Hz at the minimum, or else they will flicker. Not sure if that's because of the pixel matrix / panel driver firmware that just isn't able to go lower, but that's the only info that I came across. More in-depth stuff seems to be still rare.
Its an AMD slide, what are you going to expect.

The reason for the minimal refresh rate is that the screen doesn't actually redraw a frame when no new frame comes in, and the old frame then "decays", which depending on screen allows a minimum of 30 to 40 fps.
Of course a theoretical upper limit of 240 fps is also just a paper stat, since we have no screens for that, and for higher resolutions we're also bandwidth limited on DP.

GSYNC has its own advantages over FreeSync that AMD is of course not going to mention. For video playback not necessarily important, but AMD doesn't have a framerate limiter when FreeSync is active, which causes tearing when your 3D application/game renders faster than the maximum screen refresh. Apparently this is even a design decision on AMDs side and not just a missing feature.

And the fact that its limited to like 2 AMD GPUs and no released screens .. well, we'll see. NVIDIA could always implement FreeSync if the market goes that way, but AMD will never implement GSYNC, so NVIDIA is somewhat in a better position here.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 9th January 2015 at 22:20.
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Old 10th January 2015, 07:23   #28003  |  Link
6233638
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While it has yet to be confirmed, I've seen talk that Adaptive Sync/FreeSync may have two frames of latency just like V-Sync, while G-Sync is polled at 1000Hz for a fixed overhead of 1ms.
And with G-Sync being separate hardware, it guarantees that you have the lowest latency possible. Being able to work with the display's existing processing seems detrimental from a gaming perspective.

But Adaptive Sync actually has a chance (though slim) of ending up in televisions rather than just being a thing for PC gaming monitors.
I'd prefer that NVIDIA gave us the choice of using G-Sync or Adaptive Sync displays. If G-Sync is better, surely that is what users will buy.
If Adaptive Sync is equally good at a lower price, that's good for everyone. It's not like NVIDIA is in the business of selling displays.

Last edited by 6233638; 10th January 2015 at 07:29.
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Old 10th January 2015, 13:27   #28004  |  Link
a8213711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
can you make a screen with the different saturations plus OSD?
are you using an intel IGPU ?
I just realized that in screenshots I can't see any difference in saturation, therefore it must be my Samsung television's fault, and I don't know how to fix it.
I'm using an AMD APU.
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:05   #28005  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by a8213711 View Post
I just realized that in screenshots I can't see any difference in saturation, therefore it must be my Samsung television's fault, and I don't know how to fix it.
I'm using an AMD APU.
did you used print screen?

and is your TV using PC mode there is a huge change your TV can't do PC mode in any other refresh rate than 60 hz (most samsung can't do this for what ever reason)so this may trigger the issue with the saturation. and if this is the case and you want to use PC mode think about 60 HZ only and smooth madVR motion.
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:06   #28006  |  Link
James Freeman
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NVIDIA news

Driver 347.09
Quote:
Color Range has been fixed with HDMI/DP connections, RGB Mode and YCbCr444 mode as well as 16-255 Limited Range and 0-255 Full Range options is finally available.
Yes! there is an option in the "Adjust Desktop Color Setting" menu for Limited and Full ranges.

How cool is that?
Took'em 10 years but still.... thanks.

I'll test and return in a few moments.


EDIT:

IT WORKS!!!
No restarts, no registry hacks, no nothing! Just works in a second.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 10th January 2015 at 14:19.
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:09   #28007  |  Link
khanmein
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anyone please kindly help how to fixed the error? thanks. guys did u noticed when open mpc got some delay? around 2-3 sec

http://www54.zippyshare.com/v/27530580/file.html
Attached Files
File Type: txt madVR - crash report.txt (22.3 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by khanmein; 10th January 2015 at 15:51.
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:24   #28008  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khanmein View Post
anyone please kindly help how to fixed the error? thanks. guys did u noticed when open mpc got some delay? around 2-3 sec
about the delay try to disable DXVA. this helped someone with an AMD card.

@james calm down X-)
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:26   #28009  |  Link
khanmein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
about the delay try to disable DXVA. this helped someone with an AMD card.

@james calm down X-)
bro i didn't use DXVA & i'm not using AMD. everything u said wrong. i'm nvidia fan not amd so impossible i'm using AMD. omg can u really help don't simply said.
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:26   #28010  |  Link
James Freeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
@james calm down X-)


How come nobody posted this news on this board yet?
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:29   #28011  |  Link
Qaq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khanmein View Post
guys did u noticed when open mpc got some delay? around 2-3 sec
Perhaps. 2-3 sec is not a problem for me at all. There is a whole bunch of filters and they need to fill their buffers/queues etc.
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:33   #28012  |  Link
khanmein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaq View Post
Perhaps. 2-3 sec is not a problem for me at all. There is a whole bunch of filters and they need to fill their buffers/queues etc.
i keep facing the error. i del madvr or even reset to defaults still the same.
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:33   #28013  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khanmein View Post
bro i didn't use DXVA & i'm not using AMD. everything u said wrong. i'm nvidia fan not amd so impossible i'm using AMD. omg can u really help don't simply said.
i should have known all this. sorry but my mind reading is pretty bad...
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Old 10th January 2015, 14:38   #28014  |  Link
khanmein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i should have known all this. sorry but my mind reading is pretty bad...
if u can't help don't simple answer here thanks. i need pro guy or expert not someone simply bash around & treat me like a fool.. thanks!
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Old 10th January 2015, 15:17   #28015  |  Link
James Freeman
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I have a question about range and what will yield the best results.

Currently my arrangement is as follows:

Nvidia output RGB Full 0-255
MadVR Limited 16-235
TV Limited 16-235

This way I preserve the BTB and WTW data and calibrate via the TV controls and AVSHD709 calibration patters in mp4 format with MPC-HC.
The image behaves as though it is a good Blu-Ray player but in RGB instead of YCbCr.
Plus, the image stays in its native limited 16-235 range and no Luma dithering is used, hence calmer image.
More so, no range conversion stages at all, everything stays in its native range so no conversion errors.

My actual question is should I clip the WTW, BTB and Chroma?

Like so:
Nvidia output RGB Limited 16-235 (range conversion: Full to Limited)
MadVR Full 0-255 (range conversion: Limited to Full)
TV Limited 16-235

This will result in two range conversion stages and added dithering, but it will clip the unnecessary data.

Or so:
Nvidia output RGB Full 0-255
MadVR Full 0-255 (range conversion: Limited to Full)
TV Full 0-255

This will result in one range conversion stages (an excellent one I should add ) and added dithering, but it will also clip the unnecessary data.
BUT, my Panasonic ST60 creates banding in RGB Full and 4:4:4 chroma, with my Nvidia card (I don't have ATI card to try).
The PS3 has no banding at all in RGB Full Range 4:4:4 setting, with the same "Grey Ramp 0-255" image loaded via USB.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 10th January 2015 at 15:24.
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Old 10th January 2015, 15:30   #28016  |  Link
michkrol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteryX View Post
I'm jus thinking about something. Why do the video profiles have to be configured manually? Thinking about it, it could be auto-configured pretty easily.
(...)
madVR could do these tests and build these profiles itself.
There are many possible resolution and FPS (after deinterlacing) combinations and that's not all you need to take into account.
What if you use madvr on two (or more) different screens for example?

Another problem would be the subjectivity of some settings, for which you would need user input anyway. To make a few examples:
what is a "better" scaling algorithm - do you want lanczos with anti-ringing or jinc without ar?
is it better to have debanding or error diffusion if you have performance only for one of them?
is it better to have NNEDI luma doubling with 64 neurons or luma doubling with 32 neurons and chroma doubling with 32 neurons?
do you really need NNEDI doubling with 256 neurons for anything (assuming your GPU can handle it)?

Most importantly: at what point is the added energy consumption or rather heat and noise not really worth the miniscule quality gains?

To sum up, in my opinion it's not worth the time invested in developing such feature, especially if to make it really worth it you need user input which kind of defeats the purpose of automation
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
So you can't replicate madVR lowering render time after exiting out of, and then back into fullscreen?
Are you sure it's not simply because you reset the stats when you toggle full screen mode?
It does happen for me because I have the decoder queue empty at first, then it gets full before I toggle full screen.
The render times do lower over time for me also without doing anything, since it's an average value.

To make sure, reset the stats with CTRL+R instead of toggling the full screen and see what happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by khanmein View Post
i keep facing the error. i del madvr or even reset to defaults still the same.
If I understand you correctly and this problem occurs without madvr, please contact the player's/codecs' developers - this is madvr's thread for madvr's discussion.
If I understand you wrong, please check with other video renderers (e.g. EVR) and report back, if the problem still occurs.
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Old 10th January 2015, 15:36   #28017  |  Link
huhn
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http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post23274961

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

There are 3 possible HTPC level configurations, when using madVR:

(1) Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255.

This is the most recommended setup because it doesn't (shouldn't) have any banding problems, and still has all video, desktop and games with correct black/white levels. In this case test patterns need to have black at 0,0,0, obviously.

(2) Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 16-235. madVR has to be set to 0-255.

This is not recommended, because the GPU stretches the madVR output, probably in 8bit without dithering, so banding could be introduced. However, this is not a big problem for ArgyllCMS. Argyll still needs to create test patterns with black at 0,0,0. The GPU will then stretch the test patterns from 0-255 to 16-235, so the display will get 16,16,16, although Argyll rendered 0,0,0. So the levels are correct.

(3) Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 0-255. madVR is set to 16-235.

This is the recommended setup for best image quality if your display can't do 0-255. This setup results in banding-free madVR image quality. However, levels for desktop and games will be incorrect, because desktop and games will render black at 0,0,0, while the display expects black at 16,16,16. This is a problem for ArgyllCMS, because Argyll will create test patterns with black at 0,0,0, and the display will also receive these at 0,0,0. So basically Argyll test patterns will have wrong levels, which will screw up the whole calibration.

It is my understanding that Graeme implemented the -E switch specifically for (3), because without the -E switch Argyll test patterns would send wrong levels to the display. Basically the -E switch tells Argyll to render test patterns with black at 16,16,16 and white at 235,235,235, which Argyll never had to do before. When using VMR/EVR, you usually switch your GPU to 0-255 or 16-235. In both cases Argyll can render test patterns with black at 0,0,0, and they will still be sent to the display with the correct levels. However, due to my recommendation to use (3) if your display doesn't support 0-255, Argyll suddenly needs to render test patterns differently. Hence Graeme implemented the -E switch.

So my understanding is that -E should be used only for (3) and in no other situation. If you use the -E switch for (1), Argyll will create test patterns with black at 16,16,16 which would be incorrect!
should be option 3 for you. this feels like a Déjà-vu.
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Old 10th January 2015, 15:43   #28018  |  Link
James Freeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
should be option 3 for you. this feels like a Déjà-vu.
Thanks huhn.

No its not a Déjà-vu, or an error in the matrix.
I tend to ask the same question from time to time to reassure myself that I made the right choice.

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Old 10th January 2015, 15:50   #28019  |  Link
khanmein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michkrol View Post
There are many possible resolution and FPS (after deinterlacing) combinations and that's not all you need to take into account.
What if you use madvr on two (or more) different screens for example?

Another problem would be the subjectivity of some settings, for which you would need user input anyway. To make a few examples:
what is a "better" scaling algorithm - do you want lanczos with anti-ringing or jinc without ar?
is it better to have debanding or error diffusion if you have performance only for one of them?
is it better to have NNEDI luma doubling with 64 neurons or luma doubling with 32 neurons and chroma doubling with 32 neurons?
do you really need NNEDI doubling with 256 neurons for anything (assuming your GPU can handle it)?

Most importantly: at what point is the added energy consumption or rather heat and noise not really worth the miniscule quality gains?

To sum up, in my opinion it's not worth the time invested in developing such feature, especially if to make it really worth it you need user input which kind of defeats the purpose of automation

Are you sure it's not simply because you reset the stats when you toggle full screen mode?
It does happen for me because I have the decoder queue empty at first, then it gets full before I toggle full screen.
The render times do lower over time for me also without doing anything, since it's an average value.

To make sure, reset the stats with CTRL+R instead of toggling the full screen and see what happens.

If I understand you correctly and this problem occurs without madvr, please contact the player's/codecs' developers - this is madvr's thread for madvr's discussion.
If I understand you wrong, please check with other video renderers (e.g. EVR) and report back, if the problem still occurs.
it related to madVR got dump file. http://www54.zippyshare.com/v/27530580/file.html
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Old 11th January 2015, 00:28   #28020  |  Link
DragonQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
It seems that not only is FreeSync more flexible, but according to various CES articles, the first FreeSync monitors are limited to 40Hz at the minimum, or else they will flicker. Not sure if that's because of the pixel matrix / panel driver firmware that just isn't able to go lower, but that's the only info that I came across. More in-depth stuff seems to be still rare.

At least theoretically, 9-240Hz seems to be perfect for our needs.
The minimum refresh rate thing is strange to me. For technologies like CRT, plasma and OLED, it totally makes sense that refresh rates need to be high enough to avoid flicker. Indeed, my plasma displays 50 Hz inputs as 100 Hz and 24 Hz inputs as 96 Hz for this reason. However, don't LCDs use sample-and-hold? If so, why would there be flicker with any refresh rate?

I suppose it's largely irrelevant anyway since you can always reshow the previous frame if a new one isn't ready. For example, if your minimum refresh rate was 10 Hz (0.1 s between frames) but no frame is sent within 0.1 s, then just reshow the previous frame and wait for a new frame in the next 0.1 s. The only minor problem would be if a new frame was sent very soon after a previous frame was re-used. Whether that would cause a delay to that new frame depends on the maximum refresh rate of the monitor.
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