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Old 11th May 2016, 23:24   #37901  |  Link
70MM
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Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
Guys Ive just checked with my installer and he says we are installing madvr correctly in conjunction with JRiver. He said the madVR install he did was using the Program Files/madVR folder, not the one in the user folder so he updated the folder under users and will see how it goes....

He made this video showing how the APPLY is greyed out. Can you check and see what we are doing wrong please?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGHo...ature=youtu.be
Any help on this please guys as I have my installer coming back today to try and get madvr installed correctly?
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Old 12th May 2016, 00:44   #37902  |  Link
noee
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Any help on this please guys as I have my installer coming back today to try and get madvr installed correctly?
Do you have access to the machine to copy files? If so, then find the JRIver plugins/madvr folder as mentioned above and unzip/extract the madvr.zip into that folder. I'd clear it first and make sure MediaCenter is not running. Also, you might go ahead and get rid of any other installs of madVR for clarity.

Not much else to it, we've been doing it this way for years with madVR and MediaCenter, not sure what an "installer" is going to do any differently.

Why does the "installer" have access to the machine, but you apparently don't?
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Old 12th May 2016, 00:48   #37903  |  Link
70MM
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Originally Posted by noee View Post
Do you have access to the machine to copy files? If so, then find the JRIver plugins/madvr folder as mentioned above and unzip/extract the madvr.zip into that folder. I'd clear it first and make sure MediaCenter is not running. Also, you might go ahead and get rid of any other installs of madVR for clarity.

Not much else to it, we've been doing it this way for years with madVR and MediaCenter, not sure what an "installer" is going to do any differently.

Why does the "installer" have access to the machine, but you apparently don't?
Ok we will check this today. I have my installer for the home cinema do all this stuff as he built the PC for me and is much more up with all the PC stuff than me. If I wanted complete control of it I would take it, but I don't know the install stuff.

I have learnt all the settings in madvr which he doesn't know as well as I, its just the install stuff/updates I need him for.
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Old 12th May 2016, 04:41   #37904  |  Link
70MM
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Originally Posted by noee View Post
Do you have access to the machine to copy files? If so, then find the JRIver plugins/madvr folder as mentioned above and unzip/extract the madvr.zip into that folder. I'd clear it first and make sure MediaCenter is not running. Also, you might go ahead and get rid of any other installs of madVR for clarity.

Not much else to it, we've been doing it this way for years with madVR and MediaCenter, not sure what an "installer" is going to do any differently.

Why does the "installer" have access to the machine, but you apparently don't?
Thanks for that, we completely cleared the directory where madVR was installed and started from scratch. So we had to reconfigure all the settings again. But now the new ringing setting under artefacts works correctly.

Thanks again for your help...
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Old 12th May 2016, 05:21   #37905  |  Link
mogli
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
[...]
2. It is the other way around, downscale in linear light if downscaling the source directly but downscale in gamma light when downscaling after image doubling.
[...]
Why is that? Because image doubling is happening in gamma light, too?
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Old 12th May 2016, 06:07   #37906  |  Link
omarank
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Under Windows, there's SetDeviceGammaRamp for the desktop (which always takes a 3x256 entries table with 16-bit precision integers) and equivalent functionality for D3D fullscreen.

Btw, don't use the prehistoric X-Rite (or rather LOGO/GretagMacbeth) Calibration Tester to test video card gamma ramp linearity - it doesn't work right and from what I know, never did (you can even see it in your screenshot, the end value for a linear ramp should be 65535, but LUT tester thinks it should be 65280, which probably means the developers made the mistake that they assumed each step above zero increases by 256 instead of the correct 257). There's other tools to check video card gamma ramp linearity (e.g. either Argyll's dispcal -V when used with a linear cal file which will show the discrepancy if any in percent, or DisplayCAL's curve viewer which will show "linear" in the status area if you hover the graph of a linear gamma ramp when "show calibration from video card" is checked).
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Not only that, it's the only correct way - a linear 16-bit ramp with the goal to not alter the input in any way has to start at 0 and end at 65535, not 65280, so the CalibrationTester is simply wrong :-)

Btw, I think of the math in a slightly different way: The increment step is 65535 / <number of entries per channel - 1>, i.e. 65535 / (256 - 1) or 65535 / 255.
Why subtract 1 from the number of entries per channel? Because the first entry is zero, and so we have (256 - 1) = 255 entries left to increment up to the maximum channel value of 65535. Sorry for the OT :-)
Thanks for explaining this. I am convinced that how madVR/Argyll/DisplayCAL handle/view the GPU LUT is the correct way to do.

However, I still have a concern. I was using the Calibration Tester not to reset the LUT but to check the status of the LUT. I did this testing on three systems with different GPUs – Intel, AMD and Nvidia. In all three systems there was no ICC profile used and there was no application manipulating the LUT. In this condition, the default state of the LUT was found different than it was when madVR reset the LUT (through “disable GPU gamma ramps”) as you would have seen in the Comparison that I posted. So by default the LUT is set as slightly non-linear. Yesterday I also observed that if in Nvidia control panel -> Adjust Desktop Color Settings -> “Use NVIDIA Settings” is selected, the state of the LUT changes to linear from the default slightly non-linear state. Similarly, if in AMD settings -> Desktop Color -> “Reactivate AMD Color Controls” is selected (with default gamma 1.00), the state of the LUT changes to linear from slightly non-linear. I was wondering if there is any implication of this slightly non-linear state of the LUT? Could it be that the GPU driver doesn’t do any processing of the LUT when it is set in this slightly non-linear state (the default OS state)?
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Old 12th May 2016, 13:18   #37907  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Could it be that the GPU driver doesn’t do any processing of the LUT when it is set in this slightly non-linear state (the default OS state)?
Maybe, but the only processing it has to do is a table lookup, so I doubt it matters at all for performance.

Incidentally, while writing my own little program to keep my LUT loaded (a lot of games disable it when they go fullscreen), I saw a lot of problems on an Intel GPU. The LUT would get reset by various events (by Windows security dialogues and the like), but the GPU would be convinced that the old LUT was still loaded - and loading it again would do nothing.

I eventually solved this by setting the LUT unconditionally, and quickly switching back and forth between two imperceptibly different LUTs (the actual LUT, and the same LUT with all 16-bit values increased by 1) once every few seconds. Thankfully doing so didn't seem to cause video playback glitches, but having the GPU just flat-out lie to you is pretty annoying.

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Hmm, with the new build I seem to be getting image doubling if the window is smaller than the video. It turns off if the window is the exact size as the video. I have image doubling set to "only if the scaling factor is 1.5x (or bigger)", so I shouldn't be getting supersampling!
Ooops, will have to check that.
I've worked around this bug for now by adding a profile that explicitly disables image doubling if ((scalingFactor.x < 1.0) && (scalingFactor.y < 1.0)).

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 12th May 2016 at 13:56.
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Old 12th May 2016, 14:19   #37908  |  Link
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Many thanks aufkrawall and Asmodian for explaining the downscaling light options! Indeed, I got it wrong so now I have linear light enabled only with UHD -> 1080p scaling (I've shot a lot of UHD stuff on my Samsung Note 4). I always use SuperRes along with doubling though, so best to settle for gamma light for the other profiles then.

BTW, speaking of Samsung Note 4 and its variable frame rate clips: am I dreaming, or can LAV filters affect how smoothly VFR vids are handled in madVR? It feels as if dropped/repeated frames seem less jarring/glitchy as of late. It seems to me this happened after updating my Kodi DSPlayer which had the most up-to-date LAV package (the player itself is no longer being developed). I would think a dropped frame is a dropped frame though, so maybe I've just grown accustomed to VFR's inherent glitchiness, dunno...

Last edited by Uoppi; 12th May 2016 at 14:21.
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Old 12th May 2016, 16:41   #37909  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
In this condition, the default state of the LUT was found different than it was when madVR reset the LUT
Check if "Use Windows display calibration" is enabled (Windows Color Management settings -> "Advanced" tab), it has the same problem as the CalibrationTester (which is pretty embarrassing for MS to be honest, you would think that they would know their own APIs better...).

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Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Incidentally, while writing my own little program to keep my LUT loaded (a lot of games disable it when they go fullscreen)
If you're using SetDeviceGammaRamp, this may not be enough for fullscreen (D3D) games, because the APIs allow for different video card gamma tables in desktop/windowed mode and fullscreen (exclusive) mode where the latter can only be influenced from within the actual game process (or via DLL injection, there's a small utility called ColorClutch which uses this method).
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Old 12th May 2016, 16:48   #37910  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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If you're using SetDeviceGammaRamp, this may not be enough for fullscreen (D3D) games, because the APIs allow for different video card gamma tables in desktop/windowed mode and fullscreen (exclusive) mode where the latter can only be influenced from within the actual game process (or via DLL injection, there's a small utility called ColorClutch which uses this method).
Yes, thankfully I've only come across one game that used the D3D API to overwrite the gamma ramps (The Bard's Tale), and I was able to fix that using a hook I wrote myself (which also puts the game into windowed mode to fix the alt-tab crashes). Didn't know about Color Clutch though, I'll have to remember that if I run into another game that sets the gamma ramps.

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 12th May 2016 at 16:52.
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Old 12th May 2016, 17:15   #37911  |  Link
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New setting works different from the upscale/downscale antiring filter.

Dering removes source ringing before any sizing is done. Antiring removes ringing that is introduced by most scaling algorithms but shouldn't affect source ringing at all.
Thanks!

I do not watch any anime, so I assume enabling both - 1. the new De-Ringing + 2. Reducing Dark Halo's improves image quality in films.

What causes that ringing to begin-with? Does it affect specific Scaling Algorithm methods, like NNEDI3, Jinc, etc. ? Before this new De-Ringing, there already were Anti-Ringing features. Did these original features fail at removing ringing and dark halos?
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Old 12th May 2016, 17:53   #37912  |  Link
omarank
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Maybe, but the only processing it has to do is a table lookup, so I doubt it matters at all for performance..
It’s not about performance. It’s about GPU driver doing some processing on madVR rendered frames, even if it is a simple LUT processing. So if it is actually true that in the default OS state the LUT processing is bypassed, I would prefer keeping my system in that state. But we don’t know…

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Check if "Use Windows display calibration" is enabled (Windows Color Management settings -> "Advanced" tab), it has the same problem as the CalibrationTester (which is pretty embarrassing for MS to be honest, you would think that they would know their own APIs better...).
That option is disabled by default, and I also confirmed that none of the systems had that option enabled.

I agree, MS has really made a mess here.
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Old 12th May 2016, 18:38   #37913  |  Link
omarank
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I just came across this link about bypassing the LUT for 10 bit output from AMD GPU on Linux. Below is a quote from there:

“The hardware lut's only have 256 slots for indexing by a 8 bpc framebuffer. In 10 bpc scanout modes, framebuffer color values would get truncated to their 8 msb's, thereby losing the extra precision afforded by a 10 bpc framebuffer.
To retain full precision, bypass the hw lut in 10 bpc scanout mode.”


I do use 10 bit output in madVR on my AMD system, and reading this made me shiver.

Last edited by omarank; 12th May 2016 at 18:52.
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Old 12th May 2016, 19:01   #37914  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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“The hardware lut's only have 256 slots for indexing by a 8 bpc framebuffer. In 10 bpc scanout modes, framebuffer color values would get truncated to their 8 msb's, thereby losing the extra precision afforded by a 10 bpc framebuffer.
To retain full precision, bypass the hw lut in 10 bpc scanout mode.”


I do use 10 bit output in madVR on my AMD system, and reading this made me shiver.
If that's true it sucks; they should be linearly interpolating between values when the bit depth is higher than the number of entries in the LUT. Still, if they have to bypass it altogether, then it doesn't matter what values are in the LUT - and filling the LUT from 0 to 65535 is still more correct than only setting the 8 high bits of each entry.
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Old 12th May 2016, 19:16   #37915  |  Link
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Why is that? Because image doubling is happening in gamma light, too?
Image doubling is happening in gamma light but the reasoning I use is less precise/mathematical.

I like linear light downscaling because it preserves small bright details, like stars in a night sky, much better. After doubling all these small bright details are twice as big so linear light downscaling does not preserve their appearance any better but it does have more ringing and aliasing.
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Old 12th May 2016, 19:19   #37916  |  Link
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Slightly off topic (and perhaps me being a bit thick) - Anyone use a 1440p monitor here?

I had a 4K monitor at the backend of 2015 (27" Acer S277HK), but the grainy/hazy screen did my head in, and quite frankly I couldn't even see much difference when a high quality 1080 vid was played next to a high quality 4K vid, so I passed it on.

I have read 1440 is a bad screen size for watching films/tv shows/streaming as it doesn't have a 1:1 scale like 4K would from 1080, only that it benefits games. Have a 980ti so I have the graphical grunt for MadVR but just wondering whether it's worth moving up screen size from a 23" 1080p monitor to a 25"/27" 1440p one. I'm presuming there are no adverse affect with MadVR too (besides being able to use less settings at the higher res)?
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Old 12th May 2016, 19:30   #37917  |  Link
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Slightly off topic (and perhaps me being a bit thick) - Anyone use a 1440p monitor here?

I had a 4K monitor at the backend of 2015 (27" Acer S277HK), but the grainy/hazy screen did my head in, and quite frankly I couldn't even see much difference when a high quality 1080 vid was played next to a high quality 4K vid, so I passed it on.

I have read 1440 is a bad screen size for watching films/tv shows/streaming as it doesn't have a 1:1 scale like 4K would from 1080, only that it benefits games. Have a 980ti so I have the graphical grunt for MadVR but just wondering whether it's worth moving up screen size from a 23" 1080p monitor to a 25"/27" 1440p one. I'm presuming there are no adverse affect with MadVR too (besides being able to use less settings at the higher res)?
I happen to have a 1440p monitor (Acer XB270HU bprz) and a 980Ti.
Using madVR to watch 1080p on a 27" 1440p monitor is excellent. Image quality is better than 1080p on a 27" 1080p monitor because at 1080p the pixels are too visible and madVR's upscaling is very good.

A 980Ti has enough power to run quite high settings even when upscaling to 1080p to 1440. (e.g. NNEDI3 64 luma doubling is easy)
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Old 12th May 2016, 21:21   #37918  |  Link
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Thanks!

I do not watch any anime, so I assume enabling both - 1. the new De-Ringing + 2. Reducing Dark Halo's improves image quality in films.

What causes that ringing to begin-with? Does it affect specific Scaling Algorithm methods, like NNEDI3, Jinc, etc. ? Before this new De-Ringing, there already were Anti-Ringing features. Did these original features fail at removing ringing and dark halos?
Like madshi said, it's a problem when studios use certain scalers or sharpeners to resize a master down to the DVD or blu ray. He says that it's not from compression, but I find it sometimes helps with light ringing from compression (h264 is like jpeg. Everything gets turned into a lossy Fourier function which inherently introduces ringing)

You could probably try removing dark haloing for anime if your sources are high enough resolution. I feel like the halo detection is per pixel, which means that any dark lines won't get confused as long as they're sufficiently thick in pixel count. I tried it for clean 720p cartoon encodes, and it doesn't do any damage at the very least (or benefit much either, because they're so clean to start with)
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Old 12th May 2016, 23:09   #37919  |  Link
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BTW, is there any easy way to play retail encrypted .m2ts files with mVR & Reclock? Can't really waste 40GB per movie remuxing them.

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OMG, is this for real? The difference is unbelievable!

All the details still intact, while it only removes the ringing COMPLETELY.

Wow, I am speechless. This one feature alone is probably the best proof that madVR is so much better than anything else out in the market for video playback rendering by far.

Great work madshi!
Couldn't have said it better,

1080p with ringing is a total waste when you can get such natural looking deringing in realtime, who needs 4K no more

Turns out it seems to work stunningly well with SuperRes LL@2 + AB@100 so please don't remove AB from SR anytime soon, still playing around but I certainly like what I see in combination with vanilla 100% LL SSIM2D & vanilla sxbr(whose main problem was amplifying existing ringing as I understand it).

Outrageous results really, hats off
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Old 12th May 2016, 23:35   #37920  |  Link
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What percentage of video content includes source ringing? Is this more or less common than banding with 8-bit sources?
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