eac3to - audio conversion tool

[TDiTP_]

tebasuna51
Great explanation. Thanks.

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

For what you want extract the exact Ls channel?

Typical (but unusual) situation is decode "strange setup", then mix C-channel with translating voice (AFAIK it's popular in my country only ) and then encode in the same scheme "strange setup".
Now I think that can use ArcSoft.

[Joniii]

I demuxed 2 BD's of The Aviator to use audio from import BD to Region A BD. German import has english DTS-HD Master Audio and I would like to use that with Region A BD with VC-1 because main track in it is AC3. Only problem is that the audio is not completely in synch.

I was thinking of converting DTS core and AC3 to wav with something like Wavelab and check the graph to see where the audio starts and add the delay when remuxing but that propably isn't the easiest way plus wavelab isn't freeware. Anyone have any ideas?

[dansrfe]

I don't quite understand why you you are bringing the Region A BD into the mix when your imported German disc has English DTS-HD Master Audio and a 1080p HD picture. Imported BD's, especially in AVC, are BETTER than VC-1 Region A BD's. Authoring/encoding houses in Germany actually know how to author/encode.

[sshd]

Small bug: When converting 24p mkv to 23.976

eac3to.exe file.mkv 1: vid.mkv 2: aud.flac -slowdown (works)
eac3to.exe file.mkv 1: vid.mkv 2: aud.flac 3: subs.srt -slowdown (-slowdown ignored)

[tebasuna51]

Originally Posted by sshd

eac3to.exe file.mkv 1: vid.mkv 2: aud.flac -slowdown (works)

Only with flac, maybe you need:
eac3to.exe file.mkv 1: vid.mkv -slowdown 2: aud.flac -slowdown

eac3to.exe file.mkv 1: vid.mkv 2: aud.flac 3: subs.srt -slowdown (-slowdown ignored)

Yep, -slowdown don't work with subs.

[Joniii]

Originally Posted by dansrfe

I don't quite understand why you you are bringing the Region A BD into the mix when your imported German disc has English DTS-HD Master Audio and a 1080p HD picture. Imported BD's, especially in AVC, are BETTER than VC-1 Region A BD's. Authoring/encoding houses in Germany actually know how to author/encode.

I thought of that too since it's AVC and has a high bitrate compared to VC-1 but I don't really understand the source of these german releases, I mean do they have the same quality masters? Is there a program that opens both AVC and VC-1 similar to VirtualDub so that I can go to specific frame and take a screenshots to compare?

[dansrfe]

I do believe The Aviator has the same master used for the Region A & B Discs. easiest way to compare is just open the file in vlc and take screenshots. another way is to index both .m2ts files with ffms2 and then do a stackhorizontal for side-by-side analysis of the same frame. But personally I would go with the AVC version with the higher bitrate.

[Joniii]

Originally Posted by dansrfe

I do believe The Aviator has the same master used for the Region A & B Discs. easiest way to compare is just open the file in vlc and take screenshots. another way is to index both .m2ts files with ffms2 and then do a stackhorizontal for side-by-side analysis of the same frame. But personally I would go with the AVC version with the higher bitrate.

Thx for the info .

[Joniii]

Another question.

I'm trying to add AC3 track from Cars PAL DVD to Cars Region A BD. Everything goes fine except I think eac3to is remapping the channels incorrectly, I mean DVD ac3 should have the same channel order than in BD or am I wrong?

D:\eac3to>eac3to e:\c.ac3 d:\cf.ac3 -slowdown
AC3 EX, 5.1 channels, 1:51:44, 384kbps, 48kHz
The Nero decoder doesn't seem to work, will use libav instead.
Decoding with libav/ffmpeg...
Remapping channels...
Changing FPS from 25.000 to 23.976...
Encoding AC3 <640kbps> with libAften...
Creating file "d:\cf.ac3"...
Clipping detected, a 2nd pass will be necessary.
Starting 2nd pass...
Decoding with libav/ffmpeg...
Remapping channels...
Changing FPS from 25.000 to 23.976...
Encoding AC3 <640kbps> with libAften...
Applying -0,28dB gain...
Creating file "d:\cf.ac3"...
eac3to processing took 25 minutes, 40 seconds.
Done.

[tebasuna51]

Originally Posted by Joniii

...
Everything goes fine except I think eac3to is remapping the channels incorrectly, I mean DVD ac3 should have the same channel order than in BD or am I wrong?

Don't worry, the message:

Remapping channels...

is from ac3 internal order to uncompressed order, but the final ac3 have the same channel map than original.

[Thunderbolt8]

there has been a lot of checking done with different versions of the arcsoft decoder files. but are there maybe other versions of the sonic decoder which might give us more benefits?

[xkodi]

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8

there has been a lot of checking done with different versions of the arcsoft decoder files. but are there maybe other versions of the sonic decoder which might give us more benefits?

i don't believe so, because i ran some tests before:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...81#post1212881

and also here (at the end of the post) is summary and conclusions from the tests:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...14#post1158014

in fact i tried recently even the latest Sonic version "4.3.0.238" and it can't work with eac3to at all.

[xkodi]

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

I think ArcSoft decode correctly DTS-HD MA 7.1 ("strange setup"), and search other "solution" is useless.

if that is the case then why we want to decode DTS-HD MA 5.1 in bit-perfect way (and both Sonic and Arcsoft do that), because if you look the channel layout diagrams here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...85#post1443085

then it's obvious there is no match of the speaker positions between Mircosoft 5.1 WAV file and DTS-HD MA 5.1 - Microsoft 5.1 WAV files use only 0x3F as channel mask for 5.1 WAV files, which is FL, FR, FC, LFE, SL, SR.

so, maybe i'm wrong somehow, but please explain.

also, the same post gives information that DTS-HD MA 7.1 ("strange setup") tracks can be decoded with Sonic bit-perfectly to 5.1 channels that match DTS-HD MA 5.1 speaker positions, which is another thing that seems correct at least to me to be done.

P.S. and the same question(s) for DTS-HD MA 7.1 not-"strange setup" tracks based on DTS and Microsoft channel layout diagrams and respectively speaker positions.

[EDIT] BTW, in the mentioned old post, DTS channel layout diagrams are taken directly from DTS Labs software encoder software and Microsoft ones are from here:

http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...krConfig5.docx

page 6 and 7, where is also explained how Microsoft 5.1 WAV is played back on 7.1 channel system in Windows.

[TDiTP_]

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

Then ArcSoft decode:
Side_Left = 0.6007 x Ls
Back_Left = 0.6804 x Lsr + 0.3196 x Ls

These coefficients must be function of the angle between C-speaker and Rs-speaker. May be anybody know angle? I can't find any information about it.
The angle between C-speaker and Rsr-speaker must be 150º, is not it?

[tebasuna51]

Originally Posted by TDiTP_

These coefficients must be function of the angle between C-speaker and Rs-speaker. May be anybody know angle? I can't find any information about it.
The angle between C-speaker and Rsr-speaker must be 150º, is not it?

Yes, must be function of the angle, but doesn't exist a common opinion about the exact angles between speakers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St..._placement.png

The same for 5.1 config, the Surround channels can be located between 110º and 135º.

[tebasuna51]

Originally Posted by xkodi

...
then it's obvious there is no match of the speaker positions between Mircosoft 5.1 WAV file and DTS-HD MA 5.1 - Microsoft 5.1 WAV files use only 0x3F as channel mask for 5.1 WAV files, which is FL, FR, FC, LFE, SL, SR.

so, maybe i'm wrong somehow, but please explain.

Please don't add more confussion.
Of course MS WAV channels don't have a exact correlation with Surround channels, for that admit two ChannelMask for 5.1 config:
0x003F channel mask for FL, FR, FC, LF, BL, BR
0x060F channel mask for FL, FR, FC, LF, SL, SR

Both must be played in the exact way:
- A 5.1 system must consider the last channels as Surround channels (120º more o less).
- A 7.1 system must split the Surround channels between Side and Back channels.

also, the same post gives information that DTS-HD MA 7.1 ("strange setup") tracks can be decoded with Sonic bit-perfectly to 5.1 channels that match DTS-HD MA 5.1 speaker positions, which is another thing that seems correct at least to me to be done.

P.S. and the same question(s) for DTS-HD MA 7.1 not-"strange setup" tracks based on DTS and Microsoft channel layout diagrams and respectively speaker positions.

I never tested the Sonic decoder and don't know what is exactly your questions, sorry.

For me the standard 7.1 have a exact correlation with MS channels (and standard location of speakers in a 7.1 audio system), but we need make some correction for "strange setup"

Also a receiver than accept 7.1 but have only 5.1 speakers must do some correction not only ignore the channels.

[xkodi]

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

Please don't add more confussion.

sorry, but i'm confused and i believe i'm not the only one having the same questions regarding this subject.

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

Of course MS WAV channels don't have a exact correlation with Surround channels, for that admit two ChannelMask for 5.1 config:
0x003F channel mask for FL, FR, FC, LF, BL, BR
0x060F channel mask for FL, FR, FC, LF, SL, SR

the channel mask of 0x060F exists only in theory (and not even in theory if you ask me) and in the document i referred to:

http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...krConfig5.docx

on page 9 Microsoft make it very clear that 5.1 WAV files no matter of the actual channel mask in newer versions of Windows are treatеd as with channel mask of 0x3F and effectively there is no channel mask of 0x060F, because even that channel mask is actually used it's the same for Windows as channel mask of 0x3F and thus in practice there is only one channel mask for 5.1 WAV files:

Originally Posted by SpkrConfig5.docx

In Windows XP with SP2 and Windows Server 2003 with SP1, if the system mixer produces a 5.1-channel output stream, the mixer always sets the stream's channel mask to 0x3F. The system mixer behaves this way even if it receives a 5.1-channel input stream with a channel mask of 0x60F. With this behavior, an audio driver never receives a 5.1-channel stream with a channel mask of 0x60F from the mixer.

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

Both must be played in the exact way:

i agree with this statement, because in practice Windows doesn't make difference between 0x3F and 0x60F channel mask as "SpkrConfig5.docx" document states

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

- A 5.1 system must consider the last channels as Surround channels (120º more o less).

i'm not sure about the exact angle and what "Surround channels" means in this case, but that is clearly defined in "SpkrConfig5.docx" document that in 5.1 setup Microsoft expect last two channel to be "Side Left" (SL) and "Side Right" (SR).

so, do you say that SL and SR in Microsoft world is what in DTS world is "Ls" ans "Rs"? because that is in contradiction with DTS 5.1 speaker positions:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/addcf997797266

and Microsoft 5.1 speaker positions as defined in page 6 "Playing a 5.1-Channel Stream on a 7.1 Speaker Configuration" of "SpkrConfig5.docx" document. that's the most confusing part at least for me.

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

- A 7.1 system must split the Surround channels between Side and Back channels.

that's not correct according page 6 "Playing a 5.1-Channel Stream on a 7.1 Speaker Configuration" of "SpkrConfig5.docx" document, where it's stated by Microsoft that the Back channels are just silence in such case. so, i can't agree here unless there is some document backing up your statement.

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

I never tested the Sonic decoder and don't know what is exactly your questions, sorry.

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

For me the standard 7.1 have a exact correlation with MS channels (and standard location of speakers in a 7.1 audio system)

how's that? at least from my point of view it's only in your opinion, because i don't think there is 1:1 match in speaker position between:

DTS-HD MA 7.1 (normal setup):

http://www.imagebam.com/image/43bb3497794528

and Microsoft 7.1 setup:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/160e7497795034

considering how DTS-HD MA 5.1 speaker position is:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/addcf997797266

and that there is no match in speaker position of Microsoft and DTS for 5.1 channels setup at least from what's defined in "SpkrConfig5.docx" document.

anyway, i don't want to argue about it, but there is no doubt it's very confusing.

[tebasuna51]

Originally Posted by xkodi

...
the channel mask of 0x060F exists only in theory (and not even in theory if you ask me)

Say you that to madshi and Flac developers, eac3to and flac decoder always output 0x060F.

and in the document i referred to:

http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...krConfig5.docx

The document isn't clear, see in this extract of KsMedia.h:

// Speaker Positions:
#define SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT              0x1
#define SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT             0x2
#define SPEAKER_FRONT_CENTER            0x4
#define SPEAKER_LOW_FREQUENCY           0x8
#define SPEAKER_BACK_LEFT               0x10
#define SPEAKER_BACK_RIGHT              0x20
#define SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT_OF_CENTER    0x40
#define SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT_OF_CENTER   0x80
#define SPEAKER_BACK_CENTER             0x100
#define SPEAKER_SIDE_LEFT               0x200
#define SPEAKER_SIDE_RIGHT              0x400
...
#define KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_5POINT1         (SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT | SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT | \
                                         SPEAKER_FRONT_CENTER | SPEAKER_LOW_FREQUENCY | \
                                         SPEAKER_BACK_LEFT  | SPEAKER_BACK_RIGHT)
...
#define KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_5POINT1_SURROUND (SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT | SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT | \
                                         SPEAKER_FRONT_CENTER | SPEAKER_LOW_FREQUENCY | \
                                         SPEAKER_SIDE_LEFT  | SPEAKER_SIDE_RIGHT)

Then both exist :
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_5POINT1 = 0x3F with BL, BR
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_5POINT1_SURROUND = 0x60F with SL, SR
but both must be played the same.

Other question is how the system mixer work:
- If the input is a 5.1 0x60F the output is 5.1 0x3F, no problem.
- If the input is 7.1 and need 5.1 output, discards channels 4 and 5 (BL,BR) and send a 5.1 0x3F with original channels SL, SR. This undesired behaviour can be modified using filters like ffdshow.

But all of this is irrelevant to your question:

so, do you say that SL and SR in Microsoft world is what in DTS world is "Ls" ans "Rs"?

No, I say than no matter how you call the last 2 channels (Back or Side) in a 5.1 audio they are always the "Ls, Rs" channels in DTS world (~120º), or Surround channels in AC3 world (~110º)

Forget also all the figures about exact speakers position in the MS docx, the audio is created like DTS (or DD) say and real audio systems must have the speakers located like DTS-DD say:
- For a 5.1 system: Surround channels at 110º-120º (not Side 90º nor Back 150º)
- For a 7.1 system: Side channels at ~90º, Back channels ~150º

[TDiTP_]

Originally Posted by tebasuna51

Yes, must be function of the angle, but doesn't exist a common opinion about the exact angles between speakers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St..._placement.png

I thought DTS Inc. published their angle recommendation.

Then another question please. How did you obtain that coefficients?

[tebasuna51]

Originally Posted by TDiTP_

Then another question please. How did you obtain that coefficients?

- I make 8 monowav test channel, each one with a max peak at 0 dB (normalized).

- I encode the 8 channels to 7.1 "strange setup" and after decoded with ArcSoft.

- The max peak of each channel in decoded wav say me the coefficients