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Old 6th May 2018, 04:19   #21  |  Link
Asmodian
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I just tested it on my system, Nvidia's "use default color settings" produces full for me, limited does produce limited too.
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Old 6th May 2018, 05:57   #22  |  Link
arcspin
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Hi and thank you Asmodian for your input. It is highly appreciated.
Asmodian, could you please further explain your findings above and the implications it might have.
Hi Warner306, yes I also read that Manni have had different findings depending on different drivers, I use the driver that Manni recommends which is the NVIDIA 385.28 driver.

I find it weird that the greens are not shoving when using NVIDIA Full.
I also cant explain that when using "NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard" I get Red and Blue Color flashing to 219-243 (no green flashing) but in "NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance" the colors Red and Blue only goes up to 233 (no green flashing). In both these settings the black and white bars flashes the same and Gray scale is good.



Let me take the time and be a little more specific and further explain my settings.

This is what I use:
WIN 10 64-bit, version 1709 (no spring update) with NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 driver)
JRiver (24.0.20, 64-bit) with Madvr (0.92.14)
JVC RS420/X5500 projector (4K, capable of receiving 12-bit).

Under display and Change resolution:
"NVIDIA Standard" is when I use standard color setting in the NVIDIA control panel = 32-bit, 8bpc, RGB and Limited
"NVIDIA Full" is when I use NVIDIA color setting in the NVIDIA control panel = 32-bit 12bpc, RGB and Full

Question: In the NVIDIA control panel under Video, there are two options, Adjust video color settings and Adjust video image settings.
Both are set to "With the video player settings" is this correct?

Last edited by arcspin; 6th May 2018 at 06:28.
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Old 6th May 2018, 07:44   #23  |  Link
Asmodian
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OK, I was probably not correct about what was happening in my last post. It is possible to get the same results multiple ways but also some of your results don't match the GPU set to limited range.

A good test is to put madVR on limited range. With madVR set to TV levels it leaves the pattern as intended, 16 is still 16 and 235 is still 235. With madVR set to full range it expands the pattern so 16=0 and 235=255, clipping everything in the pattern below 16 and above 235.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = all bars flashing. Grey scale is off
This makes sense if NVIDIA is in limited mode so it compresses the pattern, 0 becomes 16 and 255 becomes 235. The projector can be set to anything (we don't know), it should have a gray background with "Enhance" because according to the user manual "Enhance" does mean full range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color, 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
This makes sense, using madVR with PC levels we have clipped everything above 235 and below 16 so we could never see them flash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
I cannot figure out how this works with both madVR and Nvidia set to limited range, the GPU compresses 0-255 into 16-235 and the projector is in limited range. You should see all bars flash and the background being full black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Standard = Nothing flashes. Grey scale white and black are to much
madVR expands 16 to 0 and 235 to 255. Then the GPU compresses 0 back to 16 and 255 back to 235, everything outside of 16-235 is 16 or 235 now. Like above but now you should only see 17-25 and 230-235 flash.

You know, I think your projector has been calibrated to show double compressed video properly while it is in limited range mode.
Edit: But only if the GPU is set to limited range, if the GPU is full range it seems to be calibrated to show normal limited range video properly in Standard. In the user manual it doesn't sound like your projector has any input range detection method when not using "Auto", is it possible it changes calibrations based on the GPU's dynamic range setting? I wouldn't have thought so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
Question: In the NVIDIA control panel under Video, there are two options, Adjust video color settings and Adjust video image settings.
Both are set to "With the video player settings" is this correct?
Yes, keep both those options on "Use the video player setting" or "With the video player settings".

Edit:
These results with the GPU in full range do not match above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = all bars, except green flashing. Grey scale is off
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale in good
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Standard = Nothing flashes. Grey scale white and black are to much
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-243 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale is good
Out of these results this looks optimal to me:
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale in good

I don't see how both this (also a good option):
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-243 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale is good
and:
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
Can be true at the same time.

Edit2: Also, since you know the calibration was done in super white mode I would also like to see how that looks with madVR in limited range and the GPU in both full and limited ranges. More data is needed to figure this out.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 6th May 2018 at 08:55.
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Old 6th May 2018, 10:33   #24  |  Link
arcspin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Edit2: Also, since you know the calibration was done in super white mode I would also like to see how that looks with madVR in limited range and the GPU in both full and limited ranges. More data is needed to figure this out.
I have made a more granular inspection of the color flashing bars and are reporting those findings in more detail down below.


NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Super White = White all flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-243 red flashing, 219-239 blue flashing, 219 green flashing, Grey scale white is off and black is good
I can adjust contrast to calibrate Gray scale to good white.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Super White = White all flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, All Colors are flashing. Grey scale white is off, black is good
I can adjust contrast to calibrate Gray scale to good white and subsequently the White flashes 230-234 and Red, Green and Blue flashes 219-233.

With JVC set to Super White I can easily raise the white flashing bars, however the white will then be off when inspecting Grey Scale but calibrated I will get perfect white in gray scale. I can´t go any higher than 26-17 with the black bars.


Test number 2 - this time with Madvr set to custom 16-255

NVIDIA Full > Madvr Custom level 16-255 > JVC Super White = White 230-234 flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-231 red flashing, 219-221 blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale white is good, black is good

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Custom level 16-255 > JVC Super White = White 230-234 flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, All Colors 219-233 flashing. Grey scale white is good, black is good
Update: With this setting I do not have to change the professional calibrators contrast and brightness settings.


It seems like the "NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Custom level 16-255 > JVC Super White" is the best set up in regards of not having to change the professional calibrators settings.
However I am in this set up stuck in 8 bit (as reported by thc JVC PJ) but upon reading in other threads this is not a big issue and as Asmodian earlier stated "people are not noticing a change in image quality"
So I'm good with that.

Last edited by arcspin; 6th May 2018 at 12:27. Reason: Ok, I'm done editing this post
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Old 6th May 2018, 13:33   #25  |  Link
Asmodian
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Very interesting, not needing to change the calibrators contrast and brightness settings is always a good sign.

However, you get the right flashing bars at the high end because madVR is clipping everything above 235 to 235 when it is set to output 16-255, so you don't really know what your projector is doing.

I think you may have found a good option but you still seem to have an extra range compression step and you want as little range compression as you can while seeing only 17-234 flashing. It is OK if you can see 235 or 6 as well but you really don't want to be able to see 16.
How do these look using the calibrator's settings?
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance
Or
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Super White

Also try a video with some shadows, you can usually tell if you are stretching and clipping shadows pretty quickly with video while the test bars just get more distinct.
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Old 6th May 2018, 14:01   #26  |  Link
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I really like the discussion on the full chain since I will have to deal with it also with a JVC shortly as well

I got some more questions in regards to 3DLUT and dynamic HDR. I was thinking even though most projector users seem to use HDR to SDR conversion and then have dynamic HDR if thats needed at all.
Question 1: Are 3DLUT corrections made by madvr also used for HDR and 3D content?
Question 2: Are 3DLUT corrections by madvr dynamic? In other words is madvr correcting the output depending on each frame or is it more a general correction independend from the content played?
Question 3: Are 3DLUT corrections also made while having HDR on passthrough? I would guess not since passthrough somehow implies it is not getting touched just want to be sure . If passthrough is not the right setting which one would be better to use 3DLUT or other optimizations on HDR content without performing a HDR to SDR conversion first?

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Old 6th May 2018, 15:50   #27  |  Link
arcspin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
How do these look using the calibrator's settings?
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance
Or
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Super White

Also try a video with some shadows, you can usually tell if you are stretching and clipping shadows pretty quickly with video while the test bars just get more distinct.
They basically looks the same but with the distinct difference that JVC Enhance is more bright and entire picture looks washed out.
I cant get the bars to go any further by changing the contrast or the brightness, so max 17 in black and max 234 in white.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-234 flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, All Colors 219-233 flashing. Grey scale white is good, black is good
=The picture looks washed out as it is much brigher.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Super White = White 230-234 flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, All Colors 219-233 flashing. Grey scale white is good, black is good
=Can't see any difference between this and "NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Custom level 16-255 > JVC Super White"

Movies looks good, I have tested it with the 2017 IT where there are a lot of darkness and shades.

Last edited by arcspin; 6th May 2018 at 15:52.
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Old 6th May 2018, 19:05   #28  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
I really like the discussion on the full chain since I will have to deal with it also with a JVC shortly as well

I got some more questions in regards to 3DLUT and dynamic HDR. I was thinking even though most projector users seem to use HDR to SDR conversion and then have dynamic HDR if thats needed at all.
Question 1: Are 3DLUT corrections made by madvr also used for HDR and 3D content?
Question 2: Are 3DLUT corrections by madvr dynamic? In other words is madvr correcting the output depending on each frame or is it more a general correction independend from the content played?
Question 3: Are 3DLUT corrections also made while having HDR on passthrough? I would guess not since passthrough somehow implies it is not getting touched just want to be sure . If passthrough is not the right setting which one would be better to use 3DLUT or other optimizations on HDR content without performing a HDR to SDR conversion first?

NoTechi
1. You can use a 3D LUT. See below.

2. I believe the 3D LUT corrects each pixel: input -> correction -> output.

3. HDR passthrough is unaffected by 3D LUTs. A 3D LUT is used for HDR -> SDR conversion if it is selected in the SDR calibration menu. madVR converts HDR to SDR and the 3D LUT is left to process the SDR output as it would any other video.

If you are using custom curves with HDR passthrough, you may not see much benefit from using madVR's tone mapping in its current state. If you aren't using custom curves, then madVR's tone mapping will offer more flexibility in customizing the brightness of the HDR image.

Here is a copy-and-paste of the information I've collected on the various HDR options:

madVR offers five methods for dealing with HDR metadata:
  • let madVR decide: The display capabilities are detected by madVR. Displays that are HDR-compatible receive the metadata via passthrough (untouched). Not HDR-compatible? The metadata is converted to SDR via pixel shader math at reasonable quality but not the highest quality.
  • passthrough HDR content to the display: The display receives the regular HDR content untouched for conversion by the display (a setting of let madVR decide will also accomplish this). HDR passthrough should only be used for displays which natively support HDR playback. Send HDR metadata to the display: Use Nvidia's/AMD's private API: requires a Nvidia/AMD GPU with recent drivers and a minimum of Windows 7. Use Windows 10 API (D3D 11 only): For Intel users; requires Windows 10 and use Direct3D 11 for presentation (Windows 7 and newer). HDR and Advanced Color should be enabled in Windows display settings. This is important as the Windows API will not dynamically switch in and out of HDR mode. HDR mode must be enabled by default. By comparison, the Nvidia/AMD API does dynamically switch HDR on and off when an HDR video is stopped and started allowing for perfect SDR and HDR playback. The Windows 10 API is all or nothing -- all HDR all the time. The Nvidia/AMD API requires the Windows OS HDR and Advanced Color is deactivated. AMD also requires 10-bit output and Direct3D 11 for presentation (Windows 7 and newer). You do not need to select 10-bit output in the madVR control panel for Nvidia GPUs; dithered 8-bit output is acceptable and sometimes preferable for some displays. Using enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode is recommended for Nvidia users when outputting 10-bits from madVR and 12-bits from the GPU. This is due to a driver bug that is creating banding with 12-bit, fullscreen windowed output. This only applies to HDR passthrough without FSE; SDR content is unaffected by 10-bit windowed mode.
  • convert HDR content to SDR by using pixel shader math: HDR is converted to SDR. The display receives SDR content.
  • convert HDR content to SDR by using an external 3DLUT: HDR content is converted to SDR. The display receives SDR content. If you supply multiple 3DLUT files, the one which best matches the source gamut will be used. The 3DLUT receives untouched R'G'B' HDR (PQ) data, applies tone & gamut mapping, then outputs R'G'B' data in the display's native gamut and transfer function.
  • process HDR content by using pixel shader math: The display receives HDR content, but the HDR source is downconverted to the target specs.
  • process HDR content by using an external 3DLUT: The display receives HDR content, but the 3DLUT downconverts the HDR source to some extent. The 3DLUT input/output is R'G'B' HDR (PQ). The 3DLUT applies some tone and/or gamut mapping.
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Old 6th May 2018, 20:50   #29  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
[*]process HDR content by using an external 3DLUT: The display receives HDR content, but the 3DLUT downconverts the HDR source to some extent. The 3DLUT input/output is R'G'B' HDR (PQ). The 3DLUT applies some tone and/or gamut mapping.
Yes I am using custom curves atm but the downside of those is they are not dynamic.

Very nice collection of the HDR options! The last one sounds like the one I was looking for if I get it right. There would be no HDR to SDR conversion but the HDR signal would be dynamically corrected according to the 3DLUT.

Anyhow many thanks again for all the great and fast replies getting me on track and in the end I am sure I will just have to try some options to find the solution I like most

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Old 7th May 2018, 19:59   #30  |  Link
arcspin
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Hi all,
I think I have figured out what is wrong with my settings.


In NVIDIA control panel when I switched from Full to Limited I did not change the color bit depth at all, it was always on 12bpc.
(and that is why the greens always were messed up)
When I switched to use the standard color settings in NVIDIA control panel the bit depth went to 8bpc by default.
(and the greens went ok)

So, with that in mind I have now tried a few set ups with NVIDIA in Full and 8bpc:
(If I understod our previous conversation correctly it is preferred to have NVIDIA to FULL and Madvr to TV level)

NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Super White = If I increase the contrast I will get perfect white, gray scale ok and all color bars flashing 219-233. Blacks I can't raise above 17.
NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = If I change contrast and brightness I will get perfect white, gray scale ok and color bars flashing 219-233. I can get all White, Black and Color bars to flash or disappear by changing contrast and brightness.
NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = Blacks I can't raise above 17, whites I can't raise above 234 and all color bars flashing 219-233 and I can't raise those either.

With these new test results, is NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance to be the preferred set up?
Movies also looks good with calibrated contrasts and brightness

Last edited by arcspin; 7th May 2018 at 20:02.
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Old 7th May 2018, 20:32   #31  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
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NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = Blacks I can't raise above 17, whites I can't raise above 234 and all color bars flashing 219-233 and I can't raise those either.
If you have to use different contrast and brightness then the calibrator to use JVC Enhance I recommend the option above with the calibrator set contrast and brightness. If not, I agree with your pick.

Starting to making more sense now.
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Old 7th May 2018, 20:56   #32  |  Link
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Hi and thanx for a quick response,
yeah, I did not quite understand why the green color messed everything up, I still can't understand why this only works in 8bpc and not 12bpc?
Could it be that the equipment* he used is in 8bpc and therefor calibrated to give perfect values only in 8bpc?

yes, with the calibrators settings everything looks good in NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard

Just for good measures I did a test with Madvr set to custom level 16-255 and JVC to Super White.
I did get the exact same result as in NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard.


I think in the end that we solved it, many thank you´s for taking the time and debugging my system.



*This is what he used calibrating my PJ.
METER: SpectraCal C6
Manufacturer: X‐Rite
Serial #: 00103663

SOURCE: Murideo 6G Generator
Manufacturer: Murideo
Info: Murideo 6G Generator 115200 baud

Last edited by arcspin; 7th May 2018 at 20:58.
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Old 8th May 2018, 02:05   #33  |  Link
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I do not think it is a matter of equipment, I am not sure what it is, maybe your projector simply doesn't like 12 bit full range RGB for some reason?

The SpectraCal 6 is Calman's bundled version of the i1 Display Pro, a good meter. I have the retail one (and Calman) and they have no issues with higher bitdepths, bit depth is not something meters notice, they are only looking at the screens brightness, hue, saturation, etc based on light sensors behind color filters.
edit: That generator was generating 8bit patterns but the projector should show the same image when receiving 8 or 12 bit 100% white.

I am glad you found a good option and "NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard" is a normal calibration mode without anything that makes me think it shouldn't be like that.
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Old 13th May 2018, 11:25   #34  |  Link
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I have a X-Rite i1Display Pro arriving next week to start the 3DLUT fun


Beside that I am really happy with the results I get so far with madvr!


Just one think bothers me is when it comes to playing 3D mvc titles I need to enable the "stereoscopic 3D-function" within the nvidia driver. Thats working perfectly and I love the results I get in regards to picture quality. However if I leave this setting enabled all players (dsplayer, mpc-hc, mpc-be) will crash once they switch to full screen exclusive mode playing a non 3D movie. Knowing this I can live with it to always enable/disable the stereoscopic function manually it just bothers me since I will not achieve my goal to be able to play everything in one media center without the need to leave it


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Old 13th May 2018, 16:19   #35  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
I have a X-Rite i1Display Pro arriving next week to start the 3DLUT fun


Beside that I am really happy with the results I get so far with madvr!


Just one think bothers me is when it comes to playing 3D mvc titles I need to enable the "stereoscopic 3D-function" within the nvidia driver. Thats working perfectly and I love the results I get in regards to picture quality. However if I leave this setting enabled all players (dsplayer, mpc-hc, mpc-be) will crash once they switch to full screen exclusive mode playing a non 3D movie. Knowing this I can live with it to always enable/disable the stereoscopic function manually it just bothers me since I will not achieve my goal to be able to play everything in one media center without the need to leave it


NoTechi
You can create a profile for your 3D content and then have a batch file run when that profile is selected. The batch file should trigger 3D mode and then turn it off at playback end. Unfortunately, I don't have a batch file to provide as an example.
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Old 13th May 2018, 17:11   #36  |  Link
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You can create a profile for your 3D content and then have a batch file run when that profile is selected. The batch file should trigger 3D mode and then turn it off at playback end. Unfortunately, I don't have a batch file to provide as an example.
I don't think there is a way to toggle the "Stereoscopic 3D" within the Nividia control panel by just running a script. It might be possible by using the Nvidia API but thats something more time consuming and I need to setup all the other stuff first. Might be an option in the future


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Old 13th May 2018, 19:50   #37  |  Link
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I do remember other users using such a batch file. Unfortunately I also don't have an example as I don't use 3D at all.
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Old 14th May 2018, 16:38   #38  |  Link
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A quick search for 3D batch files came up with the following link:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...le#post1828671
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Old 14th May 2018, 22:12   #39  |  Link
NoTechi
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A quick search for 3D batch files came up with the following link:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...le#post1828671

Thanks Warner! I just did a quick google search and gave up since there are other setup priorities atm. I should have searched this forum first
My setup priorities atm:
1. Get the best picture for live TV and all types of movies (madvr with 3DLUT)

2. Get it all automated and combined within Kodi (here is where I will need the batch but it will take some more time to finish 1.)


Way to go


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Old 15th May 2018, 20:06   #40  |  Link
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Hi,
I have been wondering about the 8bpc vs. 10bpc difference in color reproduction I have with my setup in NVIDIA controll panel as I mentioned in previous posts.

I have one question regarding the OSD information "Ctrl+J"
When I change to Exclusive mode in Madvr the OSD states:
D3D11 exclusive (10bit)
P010, 10bit, 4.2.0

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dmJGphQ1sqx5y9qQ2

(The information is taken from a "2160 4K, HEVC 10bit, UltraHD)

Can anyone please explain what the 10 bit information means in regards to that in NVIDIA I have the output color depth to 8bpc (32-bit, RGB, 8 bpc, Full).
Are there any correlation between these two bit depth numbers or am I totally out of my depth here *smile*

Best regards,
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