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Old 27th April 2018, 18:03   #1  |  Link
NoTechi
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General madvr HTPC questions

Hi everyone,

hopefully my madvr questions are not too newb for this forum ...

I finally decided to get a HTPC, it's ordered and will arrive next week.

My hardware setup:
The important parts of my setup is a GTX 1080 GPU as part of the new HTPC. I already have a JVC DLA-X 7900 projector (with custom arve curves for HDR) and a Marantz SR7011 will be in between. Sound setup is for DTS-X/Atmos/Auro 3D with Voice of God. Movies are on a NAS.

My current software setup:
So far I use a mix of players without madvr:
- older NUC for 3D mvc content and YouTube
- shield for Kodi 4k HDR and lower and streaming from Netflix/Amazon
- x-Box one X for gaming
- live TV via VU solo 4k with some picture improvements which come with the VTI/enigma2 image

With the new HTPC arriving soon I want to get as much as possible combined on it with the best picture/sound possible.

There are great guides in this and on other forums to get madvr and other stuff setup but I got some general questions on which software to use where I would like to hear your advice.

1. Kodi as main UI for movies and TV:
I like the KODI UI and I would like to keep it. 3D mvc and 4k HDR playback is important and I also want to get madvr improving all of them. I was thinking just sticking with the latest KODI 18 releases combined with external players since DSPlayer seems to be not being developed anymore.
As external player with madvr support for movies I was thinking of MPC-BE since it looks like MPC-HE development has also been stopped. 3D mvc playback should be also possible with it from what I have read.
As external player with madvr support for live TV I was thinking of DVB-Viewer with Kodis DVB-Viewer plugin. DVB-Viewer seems to accept VU streams as source.

2. Streaming with Netflix and Amazon:
As far as I understand since those video streams are kinda encrypted improving them with madvr is not possible and I just have to stick with the windows 10 apps. i am just wondering since I read for madvr/kodi HDR setup I should disable HDR support under Windows 10. If I then would like to watch a Netflix HDR stream I would have to enable it again. Is this correct or is madvr anyhow ignoring the windows setting since it is not using the windows HDR functionality and I can keep the Windows HDR setting to on for Netflix/Amazon?

3. Streaming with Youtube
Thats something I didn't really figured out if it is possible to improve YouTube videos with madvr. Searching for madvr and YouTube just gets me guides to setup madvr in general. Any hints are welcome

4. Gaming
As far as I understand gaming is a whole different story then movies and it does not work or even makes sense to improve them with madvr. Anyhow having a potent gaming PC I most likely will get rid of my xbox

5. Specific to 4k HDR content
I would like to use dynamic HDR as described in some great guides here. The guides always seem to use the method to convert HDR to SDR by keeping the HDR information first and then doing the dynamic HDR magic. My question is if this is just needed to get HDR on projectors/TVs which are not HDR compatible or have not a build in HDR/SDR detection which my JVC 7900 does pretty well. In other words could I also have dynamic HDR without converting to SDR?

6. Nvidia drivers
I read your discussion arround the new and the "latest working version". Considering my setup above and that I would go with fullscreen mode should I also go with 385.28 or would be the newest fine for me?

Really looking forward to "play" with madvr and other settings on upcoming months and hope you could let me know your opinion if the software setup I described above sounds like a good way to go and again sorry if it is too newbish

NoTechi

Last edited by NoTechi; 27th April 2018 at 18:13.
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Old 27th April 2018, 18:39   #2  |  Link
Warner306
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Answered in the madVR forum...
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Old 27th April 2018, 19:05   #3  |  Link
NoTechi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Answered in the madVR forum...
Many thanks Warner!
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...79#post1840479

Based on the feedback I got so far I would go for:

1./3. Kodi DSPlayer it is then. I do not use any Kodi apps at all so far but since DSPlayer supports Video adons with madvr support that would be the perfect solution for my YouTube question. If I am lucky even DVBviewer addon works for live TV

2. Looks like I have to toggle the windows HDR setting between Kodi and Netflix app but thats ok I am not switching that often

4. no madvr for games but did not expected that anyhow

5. HDR -> SDR or passthrough I will just have to test and figure out what I like more

6. 385.28 it is!

Thanks again and I am sure I will play arround with many different setups/settings soon ... but thats actually more fun then watching a movie anyhow :P

NoTechi
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Old 27th April 2018, 19:17   #4  |  Link
Warner306
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I don't think DVBviewer works for live TV with DSPlayer 17.6. The need for live TV might foil your use of DSPlayer. External player rules don't always seem to work properly and I don't know how many backends are compatible with DSPlayer, nor do I know who to set up live TV correctly. You may have to post in DSPlayer official thread to find another live TV user with a working backend. Hopefully, if DSPlayer fails, playback falls back to Kodi VideoPlayer.

I recommend Aeon Nox Silvo, Aeon MQ7 or Titan as the best skins in Kodi. Many of the others are underwhelming. Only Titan is found in the official add on repository. You will want to combine any skin with Artwork Beef because Artwork Downloader has been discontinued even though it is in the official add on repository. I use Aeon Nox Silvo (download the repo).

Last edited by Warner306; 27th April 2018 at 19:20.
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Old 27th April 2018, 19:26   #5  |  Link
NoTechi
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For the live TV part I am just going to try and see how it goes. Would be anyhow too easy if everything would work out of the box

So far I always used Aeon MQ7 but will take a look at the others. I wasn't aware of Artwork Beef but will try! Many thanks again and now just my new toy has to be delivered ... scheduled for next week Friday which is insanly far away

NoTechi
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Old 27th April 2018, 19:26   #6  |  Link
Warner306
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Also, Git Browser is a good way to access third-party add ons in a reliable way. Using Git Browser requires some Internet searching as you are mostly searching for usernames of developers. The benefit is you link directly to the GitHub source code, so the add on should be more reliable and up-to-date. There are other ways to find add ons not found in the Kodi.org repo, but I'll leave that up to you.
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Old 27th April 2018, 20:28   #7  |  Link
Warner306
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This might also be of interest. It's only for Kodi v18:

https://github.com/asciidisco/plugin...flix/issues/25.

It is possible to have separate installations of Kodi via a portable installation.
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Old 28th April 2018, 11:55   #8  |  Link
e-t172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
3. Streaming with Youtube
Thats something I didn't really figured out if it is possible to improve YouTube videos with madvr. Searching for madvr and YouTube just gets me guides to setup madvr in general. Any hints are welcome
3DYD Youtube Source works great for this.
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Old 30th April 2018, 17:52   #9  |  Link
ashlar42
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
3DYD Youtube Source works great for this.
But it's not needed if he uses Kodi, as far as I know.
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Old 4th May 2018, 15:22   #10  |  Link
NoTechi
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Thanks for all the hints and tips I really appretiate them!

My new HTPC has a delay of at least one week for shipment so I was wondering if I could prep something else in advance. I read about 3DLUT and it sounds like the optimal way to get a perfect Picture. Since I am a total newb I got some general questions on that as well:
1. Benefits to use a 3DLUT for dummies is that e.g. madvr knows what the display/projector is currently (at the time the 3DLUT gets created) is showing in regards to color, gamma and brightness and what the deviations are to calibrated standard pictures/movies. Knowing those deviations madvr would from then on adjust the input material according to those deviations to get as close as possible to the standard?
2. My projector got professionell calibrated. When I now create a 3DLUT would I change my current callibration or would I just create a file which basically reflects the current status of my projector in regards to color, brightness and so on and would not change the Settings in my projector at all?
3.I could borrow a SPIDER5 to create a 3DLUT now but I am wondering if it is important to run the calibration software (e.g. Calman) to create the 3DLUT on my HTPC directly since it would use the new GPU and so on or could I do it now already using a standard laptop and later once the HTPC arrives just import the created 3DLUT?

NoTechi
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Old 4th May 2018, 21:03   #11  |  Link
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“NVIDIA color settings” or “Default Color Settings

Hi all,
I have read this thread and many others on the topic of getting a perfect picture for watching movies from a PC. There are a lot of conflicting answers but that are to be expected.

I have some questions that I would like to address and hopefully some of you can confirm that I’m on the right track.

The first question I have is if a have understood the “full>limited>limited” correctly in my current setup which is as follows: WIN 10 with NVIDIA GTX 1060 -> JRiver with Madvr -> JVC X5500 projector.

This is how I have set it up.
NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 FW) = 32-bit, RGB, 12 bpc and Full dynamic range
MadVR v0.92.14 = RGB output level set to TV levels (16-235)
JVC X5500 = Input level set to Super White* and Color Space set to RGB
Is this a correct “full>limited>limited” setup for watching movies?


And now to my bonus question
If I change the color setup in NVIDIA from the “NVIDIA color settings” to “Default Color Settings” I get 8 bpc and the Black levels drastically change on the calibrated picture.
In the NVIDIA set-up with “NVIDIA color setting” the black bars 17-25 flashes but when I switch to “Default Color Settings” almost all the black bars, 2-25 flashes.
What are the pros and cons of these two setting and which one is preferred for watching movies?
If “Default Color Settings” is to be used, I assume the black levels needs to be calibrated down to 17-25?


* Select this setting when inputting Super White compatible device signals (dynamic range: 16-255)
(Why Super White? Because the professional calibrator used this setting when calibrating the projector.)
http://tinyurl.com/y8a52owz



//Peter
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Old 5th May 2018, 02:02   #12  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
Hi all,
I have read this thread and many others on the topic of getting a perfect picture for watching movies from a PC. There are a lot of conflicting answers but that are to be expected.

I have some questions that I would like to address and hopefully some of you can confirm that I’m on the right track.

The first question I have is if a have understood the “full>limited>limited” correctly in my current setup which is as follows: WIN 10 with NVIDIA GTX 1060 -> JRiver with Madvr -> JVC X5500 projector.

This is how I have set it up.
NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 FW) = 32-bit, RGB, 12 bpc and Full dynamic range
MadVR v0.92.14 = RGB output level set to TV levels (16-235)
JVC X5500 = Input level set to Super White* and Color Space set to RGB
Is this a correct “full>limited>limited” setup for watching movies?


And now to my bonus question
If I change the color setup in NVIDIA from the “NVIDIA color settings” to “Default Color Settings” I get 8 bpc and the Black levels drastically change on the calibrated picture.
In the NVIDIA set-up with “NVIDIA color setting” the black bars 17-25 flashes but when I switch to “Default Color Settings” almost all the black bars, 2-25 flashes.
What are the pros and cons of these two setting and which one is preferred for watching movies?
If “Default Color Settings” is to be used, I assume the black levels needs to be calibrated down to 17-25?


* Select this setting when inputting Super White compatible device signals (dynamic range: 16-255)
(Why Super White? Because the professional calibrator used this setting when calibrating the projector.)
http://tinyurl.com/y8a52owz



//Peter
I don't know if I understand you correctly, but if you have madVR set to limited, the GPU set to full and the projector set to limited, you should be fine. There is more detail on the three possible options in my signature.

You don't want to see bars 2-25 flashing, as this is blacker than black. The first option shows the correct bars flashing, so stick with it.

Super white allows for the display of whiter than white (and blacker than black, I assume). This extends below 16 and above 235 to make it easier to calibrate the grayscale with patterns that send this information. Otherwise, you can't see any blinking bars below 16 or above 235. Real content won't have these values, so this is just for calibration.
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Old 5th May 2018, 02:17   #13  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
This is how I have set it up.
NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 FW) = 32-bit, RGB, 12 bpc and Full dynamic range
MadVR v0.92.14 = RGB output level set to TV levels (16-235)
JVC X5500 = Input level set to Super White* and Color Space set to RGB
Is this a correct “full>limited>limited” setup for watching movies?
Yes, that is a correct chain for watching movies (but your desktop will not be correct using those settings). I am not sure what you mean by full>limited>limited though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
And now to my bonus question
If I change the color setup in NVIDIA from the “NVIDIA color settings” to “Default Color Settings” I get 8 bpc and the Black levels drastically change on the calibrated picture.
In the NVIDIA set-up with “NVIDIA color setting” the black bars 17-25 flashes but when I switch to “Default Color Settings” almost all the black bars, 2-25 flashes.
What are the pros and cons of these two setting and which one is preferred for watching movies?
If “Default Color Settings” is to be used, I assume the black levels needs to be calibrated down to 17-25?
"Default Color Settings" is simply using limited range so you get double range compression. madVR does 0-255 -> 16-235 and then the GPU does it again. This is why you can see below 17 flash, the 2 test bar is actually above 16 after the GPU compresses the range again. If you want to use "Default Color Settings" simply set madVR to full range output so you only have one range compression step.

Note: Super white is not a great calibration option when using well mastered digital video (e.g. not raw camcorder footage that was shot using super white). You are only getting 92% of the contrast your display is capable of because nothing will actually use the top 8% of your dynamic range (236-255). However, you can use custom levels in madVR to use your full range of 16-255. In Display -> properties select "custom levels..." and set black to 16 and white to 255, keep Nvidia on your current “NVIDIA color settings” with full dynamic range.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 5th May 2018 at 02:19.
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Old 5th May 2018, 01:36   #14  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
Thanks for all the hints and tips I really appretiate them!

My new HTPC has a delay of at least one week for shipment so I was wondering if I could prep something else in advance. I read about 3DLUT and it sounds like the optimal way to get a perfect Picture. Since I am a total newb I got some general questions on that as well:
1. Benefits to use a 3DLUT for dummies is that e.g. madvr knows what the display/projector is currently (at the time the 3DLUT gets created) is showing in regards to color, gamma and brightness and what the deviations are to calibrated standard pictures/movies. Knowing those deviations madvr would from then on adjust the input material according to those deviations to get as close as possible to the standard?
2. My projector got professionell calibrated. When I now create a 3DLUT would I change my current callibration or would I just create a file which basically reflects the current status of my projector in regards to color, brightness and so on and would not change the Settings in my projector at all?
3.I could borrow a SPIDER5 to create a 3DLUT now but I am wondering if it is important to run the calibration software (e.g. Calman) to create the 3DLUT on my HTPC directly since it would use the new GPU and so on or could I do it now already using a standard laptop and later once the HTPC arrives just import the created 3DLUT?

NoTechi
I've never created a 3D LUT but can probably answer most of your questions.

1. The 3D LUT table stores corrections based on color errors measured by the display calibration software. These errors will be corrected by changing the hue, saturation and luminance of the color, so it matches the standards of the gamut and gamma chosen. This will always be more precise than a standard calibration with 20 or so controls as there are millions of possible values stored in the table.

2. It is recommended to pick a neutral calibration with a proper white point, but you can you use your existing calibration as the baseline to correct.

3. The colorimeter is doing the measuring, not the GPU, so you can use a laptop. Of course, your HTPC has to be connected to the projector before running the test pattern generator.
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Old 5th May 2018, 14:16   #15  |  Link
NoTechi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I've never created a 3D LUT but can probably answer most of your questions.

1. The 3D LUT table stores corrections based on color errors measured by the display calibration software. These errors will be corrected by changing the hue, saturation and luminance of the color, so it matches the standards of the gamut and gamma chosen. This will always be more precise than a standard calibration with 20 or so controls as there are millions of possible values stored in the table.

2. It is recommended to pick a neutral calibration with a proper white point, but you can you use your existing calibration as the baseline to correct.

3. The colorimeter is doing the measuring, not the GPU, so you can use a laptop. Of course, your HTPC has to be connected to the projector before running the test pattern generator.
Many thanks Warner question 1 and 2 are clear to me now and I am definitely going to give it a go


As for question 3 I don't have my HTPC yet so I was thinking of creating the 3DLUT just with my Laptop but I guess thats not a good idea since the test pattern will be different using my Laptop instead of the HTPC. Well I will have to be patient and wait for it to arrive …
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Old 6th May 2018, 03:00   #16  |  Link
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Your JVC’s “Enhance” setting is full range 0-255 and “Standard” is limited range 16-235.

Ideally you should always see 16-234 flashing for both black and white and color bars. Since the pattern for color goes up in steps of two you only see up to 233 flash. After a software white point calibration the color bars will not match.

I have explained what each step in the rendering chain is doing below:

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = all bars flashing. Grey scale is off
madVR 0-255 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays full range.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color, 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
madVR 16-235 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays full range.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
madVR 0-255 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays limited range.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Standard = Nothing flashes. Grey scale white and black are to much
madVR 16-235 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays limited range

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Super White= White all flashing, Black no flashing, Color all flashing. Grey scale is good
madVR 16-235 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays 16-255 but only 230-235 white should be flashing

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Super White = White all flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, Color all flashing. Grey scale white is off, black is good
madVR 0-255 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays 16-255

I am not sure why you get different results with Nvidia full vs Nvidia standard. Your black and white results are the same too.

Your first bolded mode is the ideal option based on pure madVR, both Windows and madVR will be correct. NVIDIA Standard and Full range should give the same results in all cases, unless it uses a calibration in one mode but not the other? However, I don’t like changing modes after a calibration.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance
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Old 6th May 2018, 03:58   #17  |  Link
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NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance

Manni has mentioned that levels are inverted for him for several drivers. It seems more like the JVC is inverting the levels it receives. If this is the case and Nvidia Standard is actually Nvidia Full, then you would have the same Full -> Full -> Full chain that everyone else uses. But no one else besides three JVC owners I know of claims that Nvidia Standard produces Nvidia Full. Seems very strange for such a chain to produce the best results.
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Old 13th June 2018, 23:06   #18  |  Link
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What are some recommended settings for someone with rig specs similar to mine for viewing HQ 4K content on 4K display? For 1080p, I pretty much I max it out as far as I know how based on what is "considered the best quality" settings, but I have no idea what they would be for 4K HQ content... Not sure if there is such a thing as LQ 4K content out there these days...
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Old 6th May 2018, 04:19   #19  |  Link
Asmodian
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I just tested it on my system, Nvidia's "use default color settings" produces full for me, limited does produce limited too.
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Old 6th May 2018, 05:57   #20  |  Link
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Hi and thank you Asmodian for your input. It is highly appreciated.
Asmodian, could you please further explain your findings above and the implications it might have.
Hi Warner306, yes I also read that Manni have had different findings depending on different drivers, I use the driver that Manni recommends which is the NVIDIA 385.28 driver.

I find it weird that the greens are not shoving when using NVIDIA Full.
I also cant explain that when using "NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard" I get Red and Blue Color flashing to 219-243 (no green flashing) but in "NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance" the colors Red and Blue only goes up to 233 (no green flashing). In both these settings the black and white bars flashes the same and Gray scale is good.



Let me take the time and be a little more specific and further explain my settings.

This is what I use:
WIN 10 64-bit, version 1709 (no spring update) with NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 driver)
JRiver (24.0.20, 64-bit) with Madvr (0.92.14)
JVC RS420/X5500 projector (4K, capable of receiving 12-bit).

Under display and Change resolution:
"NVIDIA Standard" is when I use standard color setting in the NVIDIA control panel = 32-bit, 8bpc, RGB and Limited
"NVIDIA Full" is when I use NVIDIA color setting in the NVIDIA control panel = 32-bit 12bpc, RGB and Full

Question: In the NVIDIA control panel under Video, there are two options, Adjust video color settings and Adjust video image settings.
Both are set to "With the video player settings" is this correct?

Last edited by arcspin; 6th May 2018 at 06:28.
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