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Old 12th December 2010, 20:29   #1  |  Link
BilboFett
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True PAL 1080i 25fps Blu -> native 1080p 24fps Blu?

Hello, I'm a yank in the states and I purchased a Region B Bluray that was made from a television broadcast in the UK; the Blu is mastered in 1080i 25fps, 1.77:1 fullframe. I believe this was shot in 25fps (50 fields?) and wasn't 24fps sped up in the mastering process, so slowing down to 24 (or 23.976) won't exactly cut it. I am seeking to make a new Blu from this that will play Region 0 (or Region A) 24fps 1080p (1080i is fine as well).

I've already succesfully burned a Region-0 Bluray w/out re-encoding, but when I tried to play it on my bluray player, obviously the picture was blank (black) because it was in 25fps. Audio came out no problem.

Is there an easy/simple way to edit the pulldown flags (if I even know what I'm talking about) or some configuration on the bluray program files so that I don't have to re-encode/re-compress the entire movie from scratch?

I am also trying to preserve the DTS-MA audio in 5.1, w/out re-encoding.

I just tried recoding the M2TS using TsMuxer, changing the frame rate from 25fps to 24, but I think the audio is now out of sync.

I know, I know, people are always telling me, quite aggressively, "Bluray doesn't do PAL or NTSC, its always progressive 24p"... well, this one is the exception, since the original broadcast was designed for UK Televisions.

I really, really, don't want to re-encode and re-compress.

Any tips, creative ideas, would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by BilboFett; 12th December 2010 at 21:04. Reason: missing information
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Old 27th February 2011, 18:38   #2  |  Link
Moritzio
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Demux your audio and convert it using Eac3to (audio tab - select PAL slowdown 25->24/1.001). You can remux the converted file back to the converted 24fps video with tsMuxer. Note: if the audio is DTS, you will need to install a DTS encoder (such as SURCode) and configure Eac3to to recognize it.

This worked for me, but the (tsMuxer converted) video is compressed vertically to half the height. I need to find a tool to fix that.
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Old 27th February 2011, 19:01   #3  |  Link
shon3i
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There is no such thing on blu-ray that 1080i25 will not play on every blu-ray player. It's not DVD. So every combination which is defined is supported by every blu-ray (must be). You probably have problem that you not completly remove region coding from disc, and that's why you get blank screen on other region player. You don't need to do any recompression just make you sure you make this disc region all, thats all.
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Old 27th February 2011, 22:44   #4  |  Link
mp3dom
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No, blu-ray sold outside the 50 Hz countries are not required to decode 25fps video or 720x576 material.
The specs forces every player to support 24 Hz and 30 Hz (this for every country), and forces every blu-ray player sold in 50 Hz countries to support 50 Hz. This means that every "EU" player is able to playback almost anything while "US" player may be able (but not sure) to decode 50 Hz (it depends by the manufacturer).
In general, for the manufacturer is less expansive to produce only one model that support everything, but some manufacturer (I think for import/export) probably prefer to make two (slight) different model for different market.

Region coding on BD is implemented in a different way than DVD. While on DVD the region code is specified on the disc and managed by the player (it refuses to play a disc that have a different region code), on BD there's only a flag on the disc but the management is not implemented in the player. It must be programmed inside the disc. This allows a producer (for example) to made one disc that play a different movie (different chapters, scenes or something else) based on the region where it's played (for example a director's cut for US and a theatrical version for EU of the same movie). You can anyway made the region code check to act exactly the same as DVD (stop the playback if the region is different)

Last edited by mp3dom; 27th February 2011 at 23:10. Reason: added more infos
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Old 28th February 2011, 00:26   #5  |  Link
shon3i
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3dom
his means that every "EU" player is able to playback almost anything while "US" player may be able (but not sure) to decode 50 Hz (it depends by the manufacturer).
Well i don't think that functioning like this now, since there is no NTSC and PAL anymore. And there is few movies region A titles that is 25i. Btw american/japan television is 60hz, which is higher than 50hz, so i don't see problem playing everything under like 24, 25, 30, 50, 60 hz videos.

About region code, i aslo have same behavior like on DVD, but with SW players. I set on BD region A, and TMT3 refuses to play all region B discs.
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Last edited by shon3i; 28th February 2011 at 00:30.
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Old 28th February 2011, 00:59   #6  |  Link
mp3dom
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As you can see here not all US bdplayers supports 50Hz output. Some of them converts to 60Hz with judder, other supports 50Hz without problems and others too doesn't support it at all (the list is a bit outdated)
Also the "Blu-ray demystified" guide confirms that US bdplayers are not required to decode 50Hz video.

As for region coding, probably it's a software 'error' (TMT3 doesn't correctly implement the RND -random- function too in the VM). You can see from the Sonic Knowledge Base that you need to manually check the registers for manage the region code.

Last edited by mp3dom; 28th February 2011 at 01:02.
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Old 28th February 2011, 11:38   #7  |  Link
shon3i
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3dom
Also the "Blu-ray demystified" guide confirms that US bdplayers are not required to decode 50Hz video.
Heh, i thinked that NTSC-PAL story ends with Blu-Ray era. Anyway i still do not see problem, while TV support both 50 and 60hz (and even 100hz) not be a problem.
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Old 28th February 2011, 13:31   #8  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3dom View Post
As you can see here not all US bdplayers supports 50Hz output. Some of them converts to 60Hz with judder, other supports 50Hz without problems and others too doesn't support it at all (the list is a bit outdated)
Also the "Blu-ray demystified" guide confirms that US bdplayers are not required to decode 50Hz video.

As for region coding, probably it's a software 'error' (TMT3 doesn't correctly implement the RND -random- function too in the VM). You can see from the Sonic Knowledge Base that you need to manually check the registers for manage the region code.
Greetings mp3dom. Many thanks for the post.

I've recently converted a US imported Sony BDP-S570 to 240V operation and discovered to my horror that it won't play 50Hz BD.
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Old 28th February 2011, 14:04   #9  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3dom View Post
No, blu-ray sold outside the 50 Hz countries are not required to decode 25fps video or 720x576 material.
The specs forces every player to support 24 Hz and 30 Hz (this for every country), and forces every blu-ray player sold in 50 Hz countries to support 50 Hz. This means that every "EU" player is able to playback almost anything while "US" player may be able (but not sure) to decode 50 Hz (it depends by the manufacturer).
I thought this craze ended two years ago.

@bilbofett
Did the solution in the second post not work for you?
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Old 28th February 2011, 15:21   #10  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3dom View Post
As you can see here not all US bdplayers supports 50Hz output. Some of them converts to 60Hz with judder, other supports 50Hz without problems and others too doesn't support it at all (the list is a bit outdated)
Also the "Blu-ray demystified" guide confirms that US bdplayers are not required to decode 50Hz video.
Wow, I'm surprised to see PS3 on the 'incompatible list' i.e. doesnt convert 50Hz to 60Hz. I thought it did everything and was considering getting one largely for that reason. My Panasonic plasma HDTV is strictly 60Hz.

Anyone know if WDTV Live converts 50Hz video to 60Hz output?
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Old 28th February 2011, 16:10   #11  |  Link
shon3i
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Quote:
Anyone know if WDTV Live converts 50Hz video to 60Hz output?
Yes, wdtv convert everything to target hz.
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Old 2nd September 2011, 16:58   #12  |  Link
NathanielB
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Originally Posted by shon3i View Post
You probably have problem that you not completly remove region coding from disc, and that's why you get blank screen on other region player. You don't need to do any recompression just make you sure you make this disc region all, thats all.
Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but how do you make a dvd region all? Because I have some mp3 disks and dvds which are region 3 (I think its 3) but my dvd player say it only accepts region 1, again I think its region 1 but I cant remember as Im kind of new to making dvd's and mp3 disks etc.
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Old 2nd September 2011, 17:48   #13  |  Link
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There is no ALL region, but a bit set for each region. There is however a RCE code, a pice of software that checks on-spot the region and may pose problems to ALL-players (or auto-setting ones). This is also solved.
All players sold in US and Japan are 1 by definition (or region-free). So if you have bought yours in US/Japan/Korea it's region 1. It's also written on the back. :
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Old 3rd September 2011, 05:05   #14  |  Link
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Most ripping software sets the region mask to all, and some even hunt down RCE (Region Code Enhanced) and remove it.
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Old 24th September 2011, 07:07   #15  |  Link
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Unless you want to purchase a standalone player or media player that supports frame rate conversion for output (with associated artifacts), I think your only practical solution is to decode->process->re-encode.

IIRC BD does not support 25p, only 50i: that is why titles are authored as 50i even though they might be shot at 25p or 50i native. If truly 25p, then you only need to weave the fields, slow down the video and adjust the audio. If 50i native, you will need a more complicated de-interlacing step.

50i does not use pulldown flags, so there is nothing to remove from the original stream to convert to 24fps. I don't think there is even any indication as to whether the source was 25p or 50i: it's just 50i and the display has to handle it as best it can.

Because it is encoded as 50i, it is not possible to simply convert 25p->24p in TsMuxer et al: that's why you only get half height video if you attempt it as it is just pulling off only the even or odd fields to get the 25p frame rate.

There are quite a number of titles authored at 50i, so you are likely to come across this issue on occasion when purchasing documentaries (or even Doctor Who) from Europe, although the majority are 24p.

I know it involves re-encoding, but you can decode DTS-HD MA to LPCM and resample to adjust length, then use the multi-channel LPCM for playback as Bluray supports it (although it occupies more space than the original DTS soundtrack).

Use this experience as a learning exercise not to purchase further 50i titles from the UK. Often they have a converted alternative available in the USA that is compatible with USA players.

Last edited by IanD; 24th September 2011 at 07:29.
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