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Old 16th February 2016, 19:54   #36221  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
FWIW, SSIM 1D & 2D gave me very nice results with the one UHD test clip I used on my 1080p plasma. Is it too sharp? I have no idea. SSIM 2D seemed even sharper than 1D. Jinc downscaling didn't seem much sharper than Catmull-rom. Granted I don't anticipate having much UHD content to play back so the discussion is mainly academic at this point to me.
But downscaling isn't applied only when you play video files with resolutions above 1080p, assuming that your native display resolution is 1080p.

AFAIK, Downscaling also gets applied if you utilize Image Doubling/Multiplying for sub-1080p content. For example, 720p content with doubling will result in downscaling on 1080p display because 720x2 (doubling) or 720x4 (quadrupling) will result in image resolutions above 1080p (1440p when doubled or 2880 when quadrupled), thus requiring downscaling back to 1080p.
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Old 16th February 2016, 19:59   #36222  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Why is madVR using the term "Image Doubling" for a section that includes doubling, quadrupling, and even "octupling"? Why not just use "Image Multiplication" or "Image 2x/4x/8x Multiplication" ??? "Image Doubling" doesn't sound very accurate...
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Old 16th February 2016, 20:11   #36223  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've always been rather unhappy with how soft downscaled images got and thought they should really look sharper.
I think the point is that you aim for the scaler to output that image which resembles the source most accurately, while leeperry wants an accurate image as well (to his liking), but just at the very end of the process when the image hits the screen and not necessarily after only scaling. so for you its only 1 step to arrive at this target, while for him it can be many steps with additional sharpening after scaling etc. thats where you disagree with each other. so SSIM might shoot too far off target with its sharpening, but it still resembles the source image more closely than the other algorithms. leeperry is willing to use more than one step to arrive at this target and therefore can go with an algorithm that wont sharp too much to be save and then can apply more sharpening more presicely afterwards to resemble the original image better (or maybe just better for his own liking).

bottom line is I guess you have to decide for yourself if you want everyone to go with the 1 step solution (or at least be more limited in your options compared to what leeperry wants) or leave room in case others want additional tweaking.
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Last edited by Thunderbolt8; 16th February 2016 at 20:32.
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Old 16th February 2016, 21:07   #36224  |  Link
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Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
But downscaling isn't applied only when you play video files with resolutions above 1080p, assuming that your native display resolution is 1080p.
Yes, that depends on your settings.

Quote:
AFAIK, Downscaling also gets applied if you utilize Image Doubling/Multiplying for sub-1080p content. For example, 720p content with doubling will result in downscaling on 1080p display because 720x2 (doubling) or 720x4 (quadrupling) will result in image resolutions above 1080p (1440p when doubled or 2880 when quadrupled), thus requiring downscaling back to 1080p.
I image double DVDs with NNEDI3 and then upscale them the rest of the way with Jinc AR. I did not find quadrupling to work satisfactorily previously in my experimentation when NNEDI3 was the only doubling option.

I can image double 720p24 and then scale it down to 1080p, but 720p60 was a no go last time I tried it. I've since gotten a PCIe 3.0 motherboard, gone all x64, and now there are more possible doubling routines so maybe I should revisit. However, with the previous options and the fact I didn't have any source of 720p24 content (it's not on Blu-rays or broadcast/OTA HDTV) downscaling after doubling was not common for me.

I guess that leads to an interesting question in the case of 720p -> 1080p. Is image doubling with a super -xbr flavor and then downscaling with one of these new sharper routines preferable to straight Jinc AR upscaling? I'll have to test the render times for this later when I get home.
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Old 16th February 2016, 22:44   #36225  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I'll try to find a pristine looking 4K picture and come back with 1080p comparisons.
Well with that 50Mbps 4K Chimei inn video which is pretty pristine it's obviously how much better SSIM does with fine details. Things like hair and fabric patterns, small leaves, jewelry etc. It's no contest when it comes to real life content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
FWIW, SSIM 1D & 2D gave me very nice results with the one UHD test clip I used on my 1080p plasma. Is it too sharp? I have no idea. SSIM 2D seemed even sharper than 1D..
It's not though.

Last edited by ryrynz; 16th February 2016 at 22:52.
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Old 16th February 2016, 23:26   #36226  |  Link
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It's not though.
It's not too sharp or 2D isn't sharper than 1D SSIM?

The edges of fine text were definitely crisper with 2D than 1D.
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Old 16th February 2016, 23:55   #36227  |  Link
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Crash on v0.90.10:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9i...0FIeV80OWxjTlU
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Old 17th February 2016, 00:08   #36228  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
It's not too sharp or 2D isn't sharper than 1D SSIM?

The edges of fine text were definitely crisper with 2D than 1D.
Both.

No, the edges are better defined.. not sharper. It's more accurate to the source. If anything it should look slightly less sharp due to the absence of some ringing that 1D has, but it's hard to notice.

Last edited by ryrynz; 17th February 2016 at 00:10.
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Old 17th February 2016, 01:33   #36229  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
Why is madVR using the term "Image Doubling" for a section that includes doubling, quadrupling, and even "octupling"? Why not just use "Image Multiplication" or "Image 2x/4x/8x Multiplication" ??? "Image Doubling" doesn't sound very accurate...
I think image doubling is accurate. A 4x resize is still a double -- it is a double of a double. Every resize is a multiple of 2x; therefore, it is a double.
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Old 17th February 2016, 01:36   #36230  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I think image doubling is accurate.
Exactly. Those upscalers can only be used for doubling, so it's apt.
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Old 17th February 2016, 08:03   #36231  |  Link
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Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Have you had a chance yet to double and triple check that older builds definitely didn't have this problem?

-------

The latest LAV nightly build now "fully" supports 3D Blu-Rays, just like 2D Blu-Rays, including playlists, seamless branching etc. The only thing still missing is 3D subtitles, for those that may need it. Here's the download:

https://files.1f0.de/lavf/nightly/

Thanks to nevcairiel, once again!!
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Old 17th February 2016, 09:30   #36232  |  Link
Sunset1982
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The latest LAV nightly build now "fully" supports 3D Blu-Rays, just like 2D Blu-Rays, including playlists, seamless branching etc. The only thing still missing is 3D subtitles, for those that may need it. Here's the download:

https://files.1f0.de/lavf/nightly/

Thanks to nevcairiel, once again!!
Guys you are great! Thx to nev and madshi for your hard work!
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Old 17th February 2016, 10:44   #36233  |  Link
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Madshi, anything useful in the ChromaReconstructor 3.0 update that can be applied to madVR?
Also, any chance of other options improving soft? Placebo soft? Soft AR? The sharp options seem pretty unusable as far as accuracy goes.
Would like something that's a mix of what Jinc AR and Reconstruction gives me essentially.
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Old 17th February 2016, 12:30   #36234  |  Link
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That's somewhat strange. If you create a debug log with those queue sizes I can have a look. Maybe I'll see some sort of bug.
Okay, here is a log. I hope I did it right. I went FSE, activated the OSD, started playback, and turned off the OSD a few seconds in after about 12 dropped frames had occurred.

http://stereodude.net/madVR_Stereodude_frame_drops.7z
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Old 17th February 2016, 12:40   #36235  |  Link
Stereodude
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I can image double 720p24 and then scale it down to 1080p, but 720p60 was a no go last time I tried it. I've since gotten a PCIe 3.0 motherboard, gone all x64, and now there are more possible doubling routines so maybe I should revisit. However, with the previous options and the fact I didn't have any source of 720p24 content (it's not on Blu-rays or broadcast/OTA HDTV) downscaling after doubling was not common for me.

I guess that leads to an interesting question in the case of 720p -> 1080p. Is image doubling with a super -xbr flavor and then downscaling with one of these new sharper routines preferable to straight Jinc AR upscaling? I'll have to test the render times for this later when I get home.
Okay, so I tried this. A R9 380 can image double 1080p60 and downscale and keep the render times under 16ms. NNEDI3 is still pretty hard to do. 16 worked okay with catmull-rom downscaling (AR +LL). SuperXBR doubling with SSIM 2D downscaling was no problem. I didn't try every possible permutation since it was late last night when I was trying it.
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Old 17th February 2016, 12:57   #36236  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I've since gotten a PCIe 3.0 motherboard, gone all x64, and now there are more possible doubling routines so maybe I should revisit.
Do you think there is still a copyback with NNEDI3 on AMD?
If no, PCIe 3.0 shouldn't really have an influence on madVR.
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Old 17th February 2016, 13:58   #36237  |  Link
IanD
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
nevcairiel just released a new nightly LAV build with:

Direct Blu-Ray 3D playback support

Currently limited to only support playing SSIF files directly.
Does MadVR support outputting 3D SSIF as SBS/OU/interlaced under XP?

I can play 3D SSIF using MadVR and LAV under XP, but couldn't find any options for SBS/OU/interlaced output. I don't have a 3D TV that accepts frame packing to test out 3D playback and it only seems to render as 2D on a standard monitor.

I can get Stereoscopic Player (Trial) to output SBS/OU/interlaced/anaglyph from 3D SSIF under XP, so it is possible, but it's commercial ware.
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Old 17th February 2016, 14:15   #36238  |  Link
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3D output options are in: Devices > [DeviceName] > Properties
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Old 17th February 2016, 14:27   #36239  |  Link
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3D output options are in: Devices > [DeviceName] > Properties
Thanks for that, but no matter what option I select, the output doesn't change from a 2D presentation (with subtitles) of the 3D SSIF. I guess it is just not setup for XP use.
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Old 17th February 2016, 14:51   #36240  |  Link
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@madshi:

Will there be an option to customize the color of the seekbar in FSE mode when we arrive madvr 1.0? Are there plans to support chaptermarks? That would be really cool, so one vote from me! :-D
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