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Old 4th March 2014, 17:55   #24241  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
I don't have tearing problems but since a few days I have a lot of jerking especially during rapid movements. I was thinking it could be a VSYNC problem
can you you play a file where "a lot of jerking" is happing and make a screen with the osd (control + j)? you need to use screen print not the screen-shot function
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Old 4th March 2014, 17:58   #24242  |  Link
jaju123
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Maybe if enough people submit a bug report here then the issue with d3d9 - opencl interop cost will be fixed by AMD:

http://www.amdsurveys.com/se.ashx?s=5A1E27D25AD12B1A
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Old 4th March 2014, 18:03   #24243  |  Link
Francois76l
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
can you you play a file where "a lot of jerking" is happing and make a screen with the osd (control + j)? you need to use screen print not the screen-shot function
Thanks huhn, of course I can.
What do you call a screen print? The key on the keyboard?
Generally, I'm using Fraps. I will do it after work. Thanks for your help
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Old 4th March 2014, 18:12   #24244  |  Link
huhn
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please use control+print or alt + print (the media player has to be active in this case).

you can input the screen then with control +v in paint and save it.
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Old 4th March 2014, 19:10   #24245  |  Link
Francois76l
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
please use control+print or alt + print (the media player has to be active in this case).

you can input the screen then with control +v in paint and save it.
It's not working in fullscreen exclusive mode so I used Fraps
Here is my screenshot



In general settings, only "enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode is checked"
Chroma upscaling: NNEDI3 16 Neurons (YV12 output from ffdshow)
Image downscaling: Lanczos 8 taps + anti-ringing + Scale in linear light

Image doubling is not used since I made all my upscale via avisynth for my SD contents using NNEDI3 (the best for SD!!)

Last edited by Francois76l; 4th March 2014 at 19:27.
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Old 4th March 2014, 19:18   #24246  |  Link
annovif
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Hello, i've got a light version of windows 8 , can i know what kind of microsoft net framework or other microsoft software i have to load for 0.87.4 madvr full functionality?

Last edited by annovif; 4th March 2014 at 19:20.
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Old 4th March 2014, 19:27   #24247  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
It's not working in fullscreen exclusive mode so I used Fraps
Here is my screenshot

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/52...0419070303.png

In general settings, "only enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode is checked"
your screenshot shows perfect playback. have you waited till "a lot of jerking" is happening else the source is at fail or very very unlikely your display device.
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Old 4th March 2014, 19:38   #24248  |  Link
agustin9
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Maybe the display is delivering "fake" 48hz, you should try 60hz with smooth motion on
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Old 4th March 2014, 19:58   #24249  |  Link
huhn
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smoothmotion creates blurring with HFR files

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madshi
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn
smoothmotion creates blurring with HFR files.
smoothmotion triggers when movie frame rate is higher than display frame rate, this causes a lot of blurring.

the effect is extreme with 30 fps file on a 23p screen.
this can cause huge problems on 4k 30 fps displays or with 120+ fps files.
smooth motion shouldn't be trigger when the FPS is way higher than the display refresh rate. i don't know if a true 60 fps file makes problem on a 59p screen.
Well, I'm not totally sure about this one. The alternative would be dropping frames like crazy. Smooth motion will at least provide a smooth playback experience. Sure, it will blur a lot. But isn't that better than sharp juddering motion? Actually the algorithm to do this is quite complicated. So this is absolutely not an accident, but intentional. Whether it's good is another question. But I don't think this is a bug. Instead it might make sense to discuss this on the doom9 forum first?
yeah why not discussing this first. but it may be better to drop frames at least if the file fps is a multiply of the display refresh rate (no judder)but let's see what other people on doom9 think after seeing/reproducing this problem.
source: http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=172

the "problem" i see with HFR files on "low" frame rate display is a lot of blur and even ghosting. so i'm question if this is the right way to handle these files.
so a realistic case is a 60 fps file on a max 30 fps screen. (4k hdmi 1.4 displays)

here is a file i created to trigger a bug in madvr(you may encounter it too, but it is reported and fixed in 87.5) it's a real vfr ~ 119 fps 5 sec sample: file

you should be able to reproduce the blur and ghosting from smooth motion.
you only have to actived smooth motion, all smooth motion settings trigger on a 60 fps screen

so what did the reader of this thread think about this? i'm totally aware that this is NOT a serious problem because 120 fps file are very rare and 30 fps max displays even more.

i may created a CFR 120 fps file with really high motion later if i find the time. higher motion= higher effect.
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Old 4th March 2014, 20:23   #24250  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
I'm already in fullscreen exclusive mode.
I will try to desactivate Aero in the MadVr options.
If you're already in FSE mode then you don't need to disable Aero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
I don't have tearing problems but since a few days I have a lot of jerking especially during rapid movements. I was thinking it could be a VSYNC problem
Please have a look at the debug OSD (Ctrl+J) while you have that jerking. Do any of the queues get near empty at those times? Do you get any dropped or delayed frames listed in the OSD, or presentation glitches? Also please try to increase the size of the CPU and GPU queues (e.g. 16 CPU, 12 GPU) and also the number of pre-presented frames for exclusive mode (I'd suggest at least 8, maybe 12, currently you have 4).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaju123 View Post
Maybe if enough people submit a bug report here then the issue with d3d9 - opencl interop cost will be fixed by AMD:

http://www.amdsurveys.com/se.ashx?s=5A1E27D25AD12B1A
I don't have much hope, but it might be worth a try. I wish I could still contact AMD devrel. There used to be an email available for that, but it doesn't work, anymore. So I've no way to contact AMD developer relations, anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by annovif View Post
Hello, i've got a light version of windows 8 , can i know what kind of microsoft net framework or other microsoft software i have to load for 0.87.4 madvr full functionality?
You may need to update/install Direct3D9. Windows 7 and 8 only come with a subset of D3D9 functionality, so installing D3D9 might be helpful. Other than that I'm not aware of anything you have to install.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
Does anyone know of a way to apply a shader after smooth motion but before dithering? I made a shader which uses a trick to gamma correct the dithering algorithm, and I'd like to see if this solves the 'blinking' but to do that I need to apply it after the frames are blended.
In the long run I might make things like this possible, but currently it's just not possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
the "problem" i see with HFR files on "low" frame rate display is a lot of blur and even ghosting. so i'm question if this is the right way to handle these files.
so a realistic case is a 60 fps file on a max 30 fps screen. (4k hdmi 1.4 displays)

here is a file i created to trigger a bug in madvr(you may encounter it too, but it is reported and fixed in 87.5) it's a real vfr ~ 119 fps 5 sec sample: file

you should be able to reproduce the blur and ghosting from smooth motion.
you only have to actived smooth motion, all smooth motion settings trigger on a 60 fps screen

so what did the reader of this thread think about this? i'm totally aware that this is NOT a serious problem because 120 fps file are very rare and 30 fps max displays even more.

i may created a CFR 120 fps file with really high motion later if i find the time. higher motion= higher effect.
FWIW, after trying your 120Hz sample, I'm not sure whether I prefer smooth motion to be on or off for this sample (monitor set to 60Hz). With SM FRC on, the whole experience is definitely much smoother. With SM FRC off, it's sharper. But we're talking about aliased game graphics here. Do we really want graphics to be aliased? Then you may want to turn off SM FRC, and you may turn on Nearest Neighbor sampling, too... Ok, just kidding.

I do wonder, though, how filmed 120Hz content looks with smooth motion frc on/off. I think for filmed content it might have less visible disadvantages than game content has. But as I said above, I'm not even sure if I prefer smooth motion frc to be off for game content.

If you do make another sample, please make it a lot longer, like at least 30 seconds or so. Thanks.
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Old 4th March 2014, 21:44   #24251  |  Link
DigitalLF
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MadShi: i got a ATI 5750 and I'm about to get my self a 4k projektor and i think i need a new GPU for MadVR mostly for 1080p processing. What card would you recommend? is it still at the red team? or have you joined the darkside green team (nvidia)?

my signature is very old btw. i will get it fixed.
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Gigabyte G1.Sniper Z87, I7 4770K (3.5ghz), Gigabyte Radeon 280x, Win8.1 x64, ATI 15.7.1, MPC-HC BE 1.4.6 1478, MadVR v0.90.21, LAV Filters 0.68.1,
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Old 4th March 2014, 22:31   #24252  |  Link
Shiandow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
In the long run I might make things like this possible, but currently it's just not possible.
That's a shame, although I suspected it wasn't possible yet (since it is very rarely useful). Anyway, I have been able to show that, in principle, you can 'gamma correct' the dithering by changing the input of the dithering algorithm. And I've confirmed that this correction generally doesn't affect the first 16 bits, although for very dark colours it could in theory affect the 10th bit, but this doesn't seem to be very noticeable. I'm also pretty sure that you should use the same 'gamma correction' for smooth motion and dithering otherwise you can get the 'blinking' effect, but I haven't been able to confirm this.
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Old 4th March 2014, 22:57   #24253  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalLF View Post
MadShi: i got a ATI 5750 and I'm about to get my self a 4k projektor and i think i need a new GPU for MadVR mostly for 1080p processing. What card would you recommend? is it still at the red team? or have you joined the darkside green team (nvidia)?
This question is asked a lot, and there's no simple answer. It all depends on which algorithms you want to use, which input/output resolutions need to be supported and which movie framerate and display refresh rate etc. Just as an example: If you need support for 60p, the GPU has to be almost 2.5x as fast as it would have to be if you limited yourself to 24p. So that shows clearly how much all of this depends on your exact requirements.

AMD and NVidia have their own set of advantages and disadvantages, so I can't give a clear recommendation for either one, either. If you decide to get something from AMD, you should definitely get a 7xxx series GPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
That's a shame, although I suspected it wasn't possible yet (since it is very rarely useful). Anyway, I have been able to show that, in principle, you can 'gamma correct' the dithering by changing the input of the dithering algorithm. And I've confirmed that this correction generally doesn't affect the first 16 bits, although for very dark colours it could in theory affect the 10th bit, but this doesn't seem to be very noticeable.
Ok, but does this improve overall image quality? Last time I tried, linear light dithering looked worse than gamma light dithering. I think the answer to this question might depend on the output bitdepth. At very low bitdepths, using gamma light is so wrong that any sort of linear light hack will probably improve things. But at higher bitdepths (say 5bit+) using gamma light dithering is probably good enough to avoid obvious gamma problems, and the dithering patterns might look better than when using linear light. This is just a guess, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
I'm also pretty sure that you should use the same 'gamma correction' for smooth motion and dithering otherwise you can get the 'blinking' effect, but I haven't been able to confirm this.
I'm not convinced about this. Smooth motion blending could in theory mix a black pixel from frame A together with a white pixel from frame B, regardless of bitdepth. Obviously doing this in linear light will result in dramatically different results compared to doing it in gamma light. However, if we're talking about dithering, we're dealing with mixing two neighbor shades in the output bitdepth. The general position of these two shades on the overall gamma curve are not changed by the dithering process. Using linear light will only slightly change how many pixels are drawn with shade 1 and how many with shade 2. Because of that I don't think that smooth motion FRC and dithering would have to use the same gamma function. But I've not tested any of this, so I'm just brainstorming here...
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Old 4th March 2014, 23:15   #24254  |  Link
huhn
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new 120 fps test file looks with and without SM terrible.
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Old 4th March 2014, 23:36   #24255  |  Link
iSunrise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
new 120 fps test file looks with and without SM terrible.
For some reason I canīt play that file at all here when I enable smooth motion. All I get is a still picture and a lot of dropped frames are showing up in the OSD. If I pause and play, I get a new still picture and the OSD just updates the dropped frames count.

I tried to dial down all available settings to the bare minimum, but still, I canīt play that file with smooth motion at all.

GPU load without smooth motion is only about 18% in windowed fullscreen, so itīs definitely not the GPU, also CPU is at about 30% max. during playback without SM.

GPU is a GTX580 with 327.23 drivers, CPU is a i7 920@4GHz and display at 60Hz.

EDIT: Found the problem, I had to re-adjust my queue sizes, especially the CPU queue, because the backbuffer queue always went down to 0-2/4 or 0-2/8, which caused permanent drops without madVR even having the chance to update the frames to the display. Works fine now.

Last edited by iSunrise; 5th March 2014 at 00:30.
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Old 4th March 2014, 23:56   #24256  |  Link
huhn
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sounds ike a bug for the bug tracker.

i got some problems on my gaming pc too (nvidia 760 gtx) but in the end it works.
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Old 5th March 2014, 00:07   #24257  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Kinda strange, it seems like randomly that 120fps file huhn posted wants to playback @ double speed in FSE + Smooth Motion (CTRL+E a few times in FSE with MPC-HC), but only when using a 60hz refresh rate. Probably the same thing causing iSunrise's issue.

With and without Smooth Motion, that 120fps file looks fine when playback is normal speed. It appears to be a human controlled run though, so there are many sudden movements.

Last edited by cyberbeing; 5th March 2014 at 00:30.
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Old 5th March 2014, 00:13   #24258  |  Link
Shiandow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm not convinced about this. Smooth motion blending could in theory mix a black pixel from frame A together with a white pixel from frame B, regardless of bitdepth. Obviously doing this in linear light will result in dramatically different results compared to doing it in gamma light. However, if we're talking about dithering, we're dealing with mixing two neighbor shades in the output bitdepth. The general position of these two shades on the overall gamma curve are not changed by the dithering process. Using linear light will only slightly change how many pixels are drawn with shade 1 and how many with shade 2. Because of that I don't think that smooth motion FRC and dithering would have to use the same gamma function. But I've not tested any of this, so I'm just brainstorming here...
I just confirmed that it also happens when smooth motion is disabled and only when dithering is dynamic. So indeed it seems that I was wrong that the blinking was caused by dithering and smooth motion using different gamma curves. It also seems to happen on places that don't even change colour which also suggests that smooth motion can't be the cause. Something doesn't seem to be as random as it should be.

That aside, I am convinced that it would be better if smooth motion and dithering used the same gamma curves. For instance assume that smooth motion attempts to blend two adjacent colours 1,2. Let's say that the result should be 50% shade 1 and 50% shade 2, if this processing is done in linear light then the resulting colour generally won't be precisely between colours 1 and 2. But then in the dithering step the resulting pixels won't be 50% shade 1 or shade 2 but will be biased towards one of them. You could solve this by changing the gamma curve of smooth motion to be linear in between adjacent colours, or you can change the fractional part of the resulting pixel value such that the right percentage is rounded up instead of rounded down. This last method should in theory give an exact result so that is the one I tried to achieve with the following shader:

Code:
#define depth pow(2,8)
sampler s0 : register(s0);

float4 f(float4 x)
{
	return pow(x,1/0.45);
}

float4 main(float2 tex : TEXCOORD0) : COLOR
{
	float4 c0  = tex2D(s0, tex);
	float4 low = floor(depth*c0)/depth;
	float4 hi  = ceil (depth*c0)/depth;
	float4 c1  = (f(c0)-f(low))/(f(hi)-f(low));
	return low+(c1/depth);
}
the value 'depth' should be 2^8 if the final output is 8 bits, 2^6 for 6 bits etc. This shader shouldn't change the behaviour of the dithering algorithms much, beyond correcting the colours. In particular the error diffusion algorithms still diffuse errors in gamma light (more or less).
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Old 5th March 2014, 00:26   #24259  |  Link
XMonarchY
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I subbmited OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop bug to the 3 possible places I could. I think everyone here should do the same! If at least 10-15 people do the same - I bet we'll get a fix in the next driver release.

I think we should have a generic letter, something like:
"Dear nVidia,
It has come to my attention that almost all drivers in the past 6 months had non-functional OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop. They all had a bug that affected and still affects one of the best, if not the best, video renderer in existence - madVR. The only driver sets that have a properly working OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop are 326.80 beta and 327.23 WHQL. This bug is 100% driver-caused and not madVR-caused. madVR is a very powerful and popular renderer, recently used by AnandTech to review HTPC performance of CPUs, GPUs, and Windows 8. This review can be found here - http://www.anandtech.com/show/6674/getting-the-best-out-of-an-ivy-bridge-htpc-windows-8-madvr-and-more/7 .

Te OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop bug can be easily reproduced if you:
1. Download and extract the latest madVR from here - http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228
2. Install the latest official 334.89 WHQL drivers, or any drivers other than 326.80 beta and 327.23 WHQL.
3. Activate madVR using the provided install.bat file
4. Select madVR as the main video renderer in any madVR supported player, such as Media Player Classic - Home Cinema, PotPlayer, JRiver, etc.
5. Select NNEDI3 for Chroma Upscalier in madVR settings
6. Play any video file supported by madVR
Since NNEDI3 chroma upscaler specifically utilizes OpenCL, the file video playback will have a heavy green tint to it, caused by OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop bug in nVidia drivers.

OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop bug has been reported before, but nVidia still hasn't fixed it. It is a shame that nVidia forces its graphics card owners and many videophiles to use much older drivers if they want to use madVR, which, again, is not the source of this problem. AMD drivers do not have this problem! If nVidia is to live up to its reputation as a brand that does care for and provide the best driver functionality, stability, and performance, in addition to the best image quality and video fidelity, then it should prompt;y prioritize fixing its OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop driver bug to have it fixed in the next upcoming beta drivers and official drivers. It should also continuously verify that OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop is fully functional before each and every beta and official driver release in the future."

How does this sound? Corrections are welcome since English is my 4th language and things started to get a bit confusing for me after I mastered 3 .
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Old 5th March 2014, 00:38   #24260  |  Link
iSunrise
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@XMonarchY:
Sounds just fine.

Personally, I would use "chroma upscaling" instead of "chroma upscaler" so that the driver developers can understand what function in madVR youīre speaking of.

Keep in mind though, that NV has already reproduced the bug internally, after I reported it to Blaire (heīs a member of the NV beta program). They just didnīt come back to use, yet, with a fixed driver.

But I guess it wonīt hurt if more people report it.

Last edited by iSunrise; 5th March 2014 at 00:40.
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