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Old 11th January 2017, 03:33   #1  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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Extremely weird field orders

I've recently noticed a phenomenon in hybrid content that I don't know how to deal with. Fields will sometimes be arranged in a pattern that looks perfectly fine when viewed on an interlaced display, and doesn't look the least bit odd when run through separatefields and doubleweave, but yields jerkiness when bob-deinterlaced regardless of what field order is used. Examples include:

The Robocop: Prime Directives movies
Gargoyles opening credits
Stargate SG-1

Most recently, I caught a quick example in the episode "Ouroboros" of Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda

Does anyone know what the hell this is, why it's done, and how to fix it?
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Old 11th January 2017, 10:37   #2  |  Link
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Maybe the frames are flagged TFF/BFF but your bobber ignores the flags?
A sample of few seconds would help.
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Old 11th January 2017, 11:13   #3  |  Link
ndjamena
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As for Gargoyles, the oddest thing about the opening credits is that objects move on different frames, that's actually normal for animation, you wind up with 24 frames of movement, with each object being animated at 12fps. Other than that the only problem is with the animation. The sun goes back a step every time the background moves. Goliaths toes are quivering while they move.

But there's a more important question to be asked here. Gargoyles is animated at 24p, what the hell are you passing it through a bobbing filter for?

NTSC Season 1 actually comes pre-detelecined, you can see that each episodes is almost 100% film if you look at the d2v. If you used MPEG2Source you could probably get away with forced film, otherwise feeding the d2v file into TFM should give perfect results.

Season 2 is hard telecined. Still, TFM should make short work of it. If you do that then THERE WILL NOT BE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE RESULTING FRAMES. At least not ones that are the deinterlacers fault.
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Old 11th January 2017, 11:47   #4  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
Maybe the frames are flagged TFF/BFF but your bobber ignores the flags?
DGIndex did not report any illegal field order transitions, except for some of the Prime Directives movies.

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A sample of few seconds would help.
I'd post one, but then people would bitch about Facebook's JPEG compression as if that somehow affected the field order. I'm no eager to start another one of those arguments.

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Gargoyles is animated at 24p
Not the opening credits.

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NTSC Season 1 actually comes pre-detelecined
You mean it's natively film with soft pulldown flags, or at least that's what it switches to when the credits are done.

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you can see that each episodes is almost 100% film if you look at the d2v. If you used MPEG2Source you could probably get away with forced film, otherwise feeding the d2v file into TFM should give perfect results.
Nope, the opening credits are full of orphaned fields. The title card at the end of the opening credits (the one where the letters look like they're reflecting light from a fire) is an even more unique situation because all of the top fields form one perfectly smooth 30 hz sequence and all of the bottom fields form another, so bob-deinterlacing creates a strobing effect.
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Last edited by Katie Boundary; 23rd April 2018 at 19:40.
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Old 11th January 2017, 11:54   #5  |  Link
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Quote:
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A sample of few seconds would help.
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Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
I'd post one, but then people would bitch about Facebook's JPEG compression as if that somehow affected the field order. I'm no eager to start another one of those arguments.
How is Facebook's JPEG compression related to a video sample?
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:00   #6  |  Link
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You can try complementparity function before of IVTC or deinterlacer.
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:06   #7  |  Link
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The sun is badly animated. The logo is done like that to make it look like fire (there's something similar in the Jimmy Neutron opening sequence where the colours are inverted each field, otherwise except for fades JN is 29.97p).

The way to fix the logo is to convert it to 24fps by selecting frames alternately derived from top a bottom fields, the solution for the sun would be something similar.

There's no actual problems with the field orders and nothing odd.
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:17   #8  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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Quote:
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How is Facebook's JPEG compression related to a video sample?
I have no idea, but people kept bringing it up anyway!

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You can try complementparity function before of IVTC or deinterlacer.
And screw up the 99.999% of the video that does not suffer from this problem? I don't think that's a good idea.

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The way to fix the logo is to convert it to 24fps by selecting frames alternately derived from top a bottom fields, the solution for the sun would be something similar.
LOLno, that absolutely will not work.
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:45   #9  |  Link
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I have no idea, but people kept bringing it up anyway!
Not in this context. It was explained to you how to create a video sample here. I find it hard to believe that you can't follow these instructions so one has to assume that you simply don't want to post a sample for whatever reason.
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Old 11th January 2017, 16:09   #10  |  Link
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How is Facebook's JPEG compression related to a video sample?
Apparently she doesn't know how to upload a sample anywhere else even though she's been given a list of upload sites before.

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Not in this context. It was explained to you how to create a video sample here. I find it hard to believe that you can't follow these instructions so one has to assume that you simply don't want to post a sample for whatever reason.
You're making yourself a candidate for Katie's ignore list there. Second thread today, same old story.
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...31#post1792931

Last edited by hello_hello; 11th January 2017 at 16:17.
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Old 11th January 2017, 21:21   #11  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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Not in this context. It was explained to you how to create a video sample here. I find it hard to believe that you can't follow these instructions so one has to assume that you simply don't want to post a sample for whatever reason.
Oh, the [] thing. Yes, creating those files was the easy part. Finding a place to upload them, less so. But this isn't the thread to discuss file-hosting. This is the thread to discuss fields being encoded in the wrong order, or footage being generated in such a way that there can be no correct field order. If you've never heard of this kind of problem before, then you're in the wrong thread.
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Last edited by Katie Boundary; 23rd April 2018 at 19:40.
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Old 11th January 2017, 21:27   #12  |  Link
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This is the thread to discuss fields being encoded in the wrong order, or footage being generated in such a way that there can be no correct field order.
We can't know for sure whether that really is what's being talked about until we see a sample, can we? It wouldn't be the first time you've strung us along with your miscontrued descriptions only for the reality to turn out to be different.

No-one else seems to have a problem uploading samples.
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Old 11th January 2017, 22:27   #13  |  Link
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A picture says a thousand words, however, the real experts here need a bit more, stop prevaricating and produce some kind of clip
for the guys to work their magic on, otherwise, stop posting.
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Old 11th January 2017, 23:10   #14  |  Link
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I agree with davidhorman's last post: a sample is essential.

When I try to extract the original progressive film from what gets captured from an NTSC camera "filming" the output of a 16mm projector from which the shutter has been removed, I have to recombine fields from adjacent frames, while deleting both redundant fields as well as fields that capture the "pulldown" frame (which "pulldown" is used in its original film context, where the actual film is being pulled down into the gate, creating a totally blurred frame, even when the camera shutter speed is set to 1/1000 second).

I mention this, because some of what I needed to do for that is similar to what, perhaps, needs to be done here.

The only way I was able to achieve what I wanted was by exporting all the TFM metrics (including the MIC matching parameters) and feeding them into a spreadsheet. In that spreadsheet, I created logic which looks backwards and forwards in time, using all the metrics, and which produces a perfect matching and decimation result. The output of that spreadsheet is then fed into Pass 2 of Multidecimate which does the actual decimation as well as the recombination of fields, even if they were originally in different frames. This is another way of saying the same thing as (I think) Katie was saying, although maybe it was in the other thread he started which appears to be, more or less, the same subject.
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Old 11th January 2017, 23:31   #15  |  Link
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Okay, I ran one of the sources through Separatefields and nothing else, just to check field parity, and... there ARE field order transitions that DGIndex isn't detecting. How fix?
Which source filter did you use for stepping through the fields? Do different source filters produce identical results?
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:57   #16  |  Link
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I think that, at least in some cases, the idea is that the image is supposed to look blended when played back...

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Which source filter did you use for stepping through the fields? Do different source filters produce identical results?
Mpeg2source/mpeg2dec3.dll (DGdecode). I'm not aware of any others that can read d2v files.
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Old 12th January 2017, 12:00   #17  |  Link
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So as you found your file seems to have inconsistent field orders (field order transitions). Does it also have repeated frames/fields? Are any RFF flags present?
If the TFF and RFF flags are set correctly your clip will normally playback correctly. That's apparently what you get when you play the clip as is.
However, if you apply deinterlacers (or bobbers) the result may be different: Some deinterlacers/bobbers don't require consistent field orders, some do and will otherwise produce jerky streams.
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Old 12th January 2017, 13:33   #18  |  Link
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It's incredible how many people actually continue to reply to this thread, given the bad attitude the OP displays.
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Old 12th January 2017, 17:50   #19  |  Link
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It's incredible how many people actually continue to reply to this thread, given the bad attitude the OP displays.
Totally agree, but since I'm one of those who has responded, let the record show that I've tried to help the OP, both here and in other threads. He never once, in any of his posts, ever seems to solve any problem, never posts the results and, of course, never once posts any actual footage that would make it extremely easy to provide a solution.

To repeat my request: post a clip, post a clip, post a clip.

I want to help, which is why I sometimes post, but I have learned that he doesn't really want to solve his/her "problem" but instead just wants to keep the thread going, probably in order to have someone to "talk" to.
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Old 13th January 2017, 13:55   #20  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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https://www.sendspace.com/file/74oau3

Look at the spinning radar-like displays in the background. When bob-deinterlaced, they normally move clockwise, but sometimes jerk counter-clockwise for 1 or 2 fields.

I'll have to re-rip Gargoyles, Prime Directives, and Stargate if you want clips from those too.
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