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11th January 2017, 03:33 | #1 | Link |
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Extremely weird field orders
I've recently noticed a phenomenon in hybrid content that I don't know how to deal with. Fields will sometimes be arranged in a pattern that looks perfectly fine when viewed on an interlaced display, and doesn't look the least bit odd when run through separatefields and doubleweave, but yields jerkiness when bob-deinterlaced regardless of what field order is used. Examples include:
The Robocop: Prime Directives movies Gargoyles opening credits Stargate SG-1 Most recently, I caught a quick example in the episode "Ouroboros" of Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda Does anyone know what the hell this is, why it's done, and how to fix it?
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11th January 2017, 11:47 | #3 | Link | |
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I'd post one, but then people would bitch about Facebook's JPEG compression as if that somehow affected the field order. I'm no eager to start another one of those arguments. Not the opening credits. You mean it's natively film with soft pulldown flags, or at least that's what it switches to when the credits are done. Nope, the opening credits are full of orphaned fields. The title card at the end of the opening credits (the one where the letters look like they're reflecting light from a fire) is an even more unique situation because all of the top fields form one perfectly smooth 30 hz sequence and all of the bottom fields form another, so bob-deinterlacing creates a strobing effect.
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I ask unusual questions but always give proper thanks to those who give correct and useful answers. Last edited by Katie Boundary; 23rd April 2018 at 19:40. |
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11th January 2017, 11:54 | #4 | Link |
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How is Facebook's JPEG compression related to a video sample?
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11th January 2017, 16:09 | #5 | Link | ||
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https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...31#post1792931 Last edited by hello_hello; 11th January 2017 at 16:17. |
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11th January 2017, 11:13 | #6 | Link |
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As for Gargoyles, the oddest thing about the opening credits is that objects move on different frames, that's actually normal for animation, you wind up with 24 frames of movement, with each object being animated at 12fps. Other than that the only problem is with the animation. The sun goes back a step every time the background moves. Goliaths toes are quivering while they move.
But there's a more important question to be asked here. Gargoyles is animated at 24p, what the hell are you passing it through a bobbing filter for? NTSC Season 1 actually comes pre-detelecined, you can see that each episodes is almost 100% film if you look at the d2v. If you used MPEG2Source you could probably get away with forced film, otherwise feeding the d2v file into TFM should give perfect results. Season 2 is hard telecined. Still, TFM should make short work of it. If you do that then THERE WILL NOT BE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE RESULTING FRAMES. At least not ones that are the deinterlacers fault. |
11th January 2017, 12:00 | #7 | Link |
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You can try complementparity function before of IVTC or deinterlacer.
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11th January 2017, 12:06 | #8 | Link |
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The sun is badly animated. The logo is done like that to make it look like fire (there's something similar in the Jimmy Neutron opening sequence where the colours are inverted each field, otherwise except for fades JN is 29.97p).
The way to fix the logo is to convert it to 24fps by selecting frames alternately derived from top a bottom fields, the solution for the sun would be something similar. There's no actual problems with the field orders and nothing odd. |
11th January 2017, 12:17 | #9 | Link | ||
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LOLno, that absolutely will not work.
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11th January 2017, 12:45 | #10 | Link |
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Not in this context. It was explained to you how to create a video sample here. I find it hard to believe that you can't follow these instructions so one has to assume that you simply don't want to post a sample for whatever reason.
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11th January 2017, 21:21 | #11 | Link | |
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I ask unusual questions but always give proper thanks to those who give correct and useful answers. Last edited by Katie Boundary; 23rd April 2018 at 19:40. |
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11th January 2017, 21:27 | #13 | Link | |
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No-one else seems to have a problem uploading samples. |
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11th January 2017, 22:27 | #14 | Link |
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A picture says a thousand words, however, the real experts here need a bit more, stop prevaricating and produce some kind of clip
for the guys to work their magic on, otherwise, stop posting.
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11th January 2017, 23:10 | #15 | Link |
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I agree with davidhorman's last post: a sample is essential.
When I try to extract the original progressive film from what gets captured from an NTSC camera "filming" the output of a 16mm projector from which the shutter has been removed, I have to recombine fields from adjacent frames, while deleting both redundant fields as well as fields that capture the "pulldown" frame (which "pulldown" is used in its original film context, where the actual film is being pulled down into the gate, creating a totally blurred frame, even when the camera shutter speed is set to 1/1000 second). I mention this, because some of what I needed to do for that is similar to what, perhaps, needs to be done here. The only way I was able to achieve what I wanted was by exporting all the TFM metrics (including the MIC matching parameters) and feeding them into a spreadsheet. In that spreadsheet, I created logic which looks backwards and forwards in time, using all the metrics, and which produces a perfect matching and decimation result. The output of that spreadsheet is then fed into Pass 2 of Multidecimate which does the actual decimation as well as the recombination of fields, even if they were originally in different frames. This is another way of saying the same thing as (I think) Katie was saying, although maybe it was in the other thread he started which appears to be, more or less, the same subject. |
13th January 2017, 13:55 | #16 | Link |
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https://www.sendspace.com/file/74oau3
Look at the spinning radar-like displays in the background. When bob-deinterlaced, they normally move clockwise, but sometimes jerk counter-clockwise for 1 or 2 fields. I'll have to re-rip Gargoyles, Prime Directives, and Stargate if you want clips from those too.
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13th January 2017, 14:05 | #17 | Link |
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Code:
DGDecode_mpeg2source("C:\Users\Isra\Desktop\212 - Ouroboros.demuxed.d2v", info=3) ColorMatrix(hints=true, threads=0, interlaced=true) assumebff() animeivtc(mode=2)#mode=3 works fine too.
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13th January 2017, 19:34 | #18 | Link | |
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Or TFM().TDecimate will make the CGI stuff progressive at 23.976fps, but with or without TDecimate(), if the "video" is 29.970fps progressive that'll make motion jittery. It's hard to tell from the sample as there's no background movement, so TFM() only has to field match the CGI. If there was lots of background movement I doubt it'd be fixable that way. The closest compromise you'll probably get is QTGMC as it won't do much damage to progressive video, but you'll still need SelectEven() to delete the frames where the CGI moves in the wrong direction. I can't see converting that to 59.940fps short of QTGMC().SelectEven(),ChangeFPS(60000,1001), or adding motion interpolated frames, but that'd probably be pointless. Last edited by hello_hello; 13th January 2017 at 21:29. |
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13th January 2017, 14:09 | #19 | Link |
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I told you there is something wrong with the Gargoyles credits. The sun jumps back a bit as the background moves, but it's not something a filter can fix. The sun is at one position before the background shifts, then it moves a little further forward, then the background shifts and the sun moves back to it's previous position.
The fact is those moments in time are incompatible. That little bit of forward movement before the background shifts can't exist in any sane timestream, since the sun exists in it's previous position AFTER the background has moved, it CAN'T exist in the next position BEFORE it moves. Or are you referring to something else in the credits? |
13th January 2017, 21:16 | #20 | Link | ||||||
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I'm talking about everything, but especially the TITLE CARD: Quote:
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And no, the threads aren't redundant or even related. One thread is about fields being encoded into the video stream in an incorrect order. The other is about double-rate field-matching.
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I ask unusual questions but always give proper thanks to those who give correct and useful answers. Last edited by Katie Boundary; 13th January 2017 at 21:19. |
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