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Old 27th February 2014, 13:01   #23921  |  Link
TheLion
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Mathias,

just a quick heads up - after updating from Catalyst 13.12 to 14.2 Beta 1.3 NNEDI scaling is working now. It really was "falling back" to Jinc chroma upsampling before - for whatever reason.

All is good now

Last edited by TheLion; 27th February 2014 at 13:04.
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Old 27th February 2014, 14:48   #23922  |  Link
*Touche*
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I agree with others that ED2 (ED11) dynamic is great. So, ED2>ED1>OD>RD, all with (opposite)color + dynamic. Tested in 3/4 bit this time since in 8 bit it's too hard to tell apart. Really happy that I can drive 720p24 content with Jinc3+AR chroma/luma, low debanding, ED2+col+dyn, no trade quality, with just a A10-5800k. Hope to get a 270X soon and see if I can push some NNEDI bliss. Great work madshi!


Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
Earlier I have been looking for benchmarks of MadVR, especially with the newer NNEDI3, I didn't find any. So I decide to make my own and share with this community. This is for a 1920x1080 video upscaled to 2560x1440 (monitor res)
That looks interesting.

Last edited by *Touche*; 27th February 2014 at 14:59.
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Old 27th February 2014, 15:07   #23923  |  Link
DarkSpace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post
Mathias,

just a quick heads up - after updating from Catalyst 13.12 to 14.2 Beta 1.3 NNEDI scaling is working now. It really was "falling back" to Jinc chroma upsampling before - for whatever reason.

All is good now
Thanks for posting this. I tried installing the beta driver, and now I also can use NNEDI3 (barely, though)!
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Old 27th February 2014, 15:11   #23924  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madTPG does use all the madVR settings - except dithering. Ordered dithering produces very good results for static test patterns, so that's what madTPG is using. Calibration is all about accuracy and when doing the measurements, we want the best accuracy we can get. For static "one color" test patterns ordered dithering does that best with the most even noise distribution, so that's what madTPG is using. For real movie playback the situation is different. There error diffusion produces better results, IMHO. But not for single color test patterns.
Okay, sounds good

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
No, it's the one with the lowest randomness.
Oops! Nevermind me then.
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Old 27th February 2014, 15:24   #23925  |  Link
seiyafan
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I will test the 270x this weekend against 770. Game wise the 280x has comparable performance to 770. However I suspect to see surprises with 270x due to its higher OpenCL performance. So it's going to be even more interesting.
Meanwhile feel free to make your own speculations.

By the way, for 770 I had to use 327.23 (and even with that I got green screens if deinterlacing was running), for AMD What's the most stable driver to use? 14.2 Beta 1.3 as someone mentioned earlier?

Last edited by seiyafan; 27th February 2014 at 15:28.
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Old 27th February 2014, 15:41   #23926  |  Link
noee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
What's the most stable driver to use? 14.2 Beta 1.3 as someone mentioned earlier?
I tried 14.1 w/madVR with my older 6570 and with a Kaveri system (only had access to it for a few hours) and didn't really notice any differences to 13.12. Had other issues with 14.1 not madVR-related. Haven't tried 14.2 yet...

I'm hoping to get another Kaveri system soon that I can spend some time with to see how far it will go with madVR.
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Old 27th February 2014, 16:01   #23927  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Does activating the trade for quality option "don't rerender frames when fade in/out is detected" help?
Yes, this avoids dropped frames (but I think I still had presentation glitches with my GTX 670, will test this as soon as the Radeon is sent back).
But somehow also setting default debanding strength from low to high (same level like strength during fade in/outs) solves frame drops.
Isn't this very odd? The drops occur btw. during fade in/outs.
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Old 27th February 2014, 16:31   #23928  |  Link
leeperry
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Just ran a few more tests:
-colorful noise still looks uneasy to watch
-dynamic is still very obvious
-A4's EE is annoying to look at on sharp & clear 1080p but it works wonderfully on blurry/noisy/low-bitrate videos, sharpening up without white halos, very cool stuff
-ED11 is unforgiving, making it dynamic makes pristine 30fps 1080p look veiled as the noise is dancing around on top of the video but when going 64x NNEDI 24p 720p@1080p the dynamic noise dance still adds a noise veil but the latter is also injecting some much required "fake" grain and it wouldn't appear to be much of an issue from a distance...anyway don't shoot the messenger.
-my Sammy TV's anti-glare layers are quite thick(even my cat's claws couldn't rip it ) but it comes with a semi-glossy finish so it's also veiling the picture anyway. OTOH glossy panels are unmanageable IME(the DELL S2440L that I briefly owned comes to mind) so it's all about compromises.

I'd love a filename tag for dithering at some point if that's not too OCD'ed ^^


Last edited by leeperry; 27th February 2014 at 22:13.
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Old 27th February 2014, 16:35   #23929  |  Link
*Touche*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Just ran a few more tests:
-colorful noise still looks uneasy to watch
-dynamic is still very obvious
In 8 bit or lower?


Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
I will test the 270x this weekend against 770. Game wise the 280x has comparable performance to 770. However I suspect to see surprises with 270x due to its higher OpenCL performance. So it's going to be even more interesting.
Oh, great, I'll get to see what's possible in advance

Last edited by *Touche*; 27th February 2014 at 16:40.
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Old 27th February 2014, 17:12   #23930  |  Link
GREG1292
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[QUOTE=*Touche*;1670882]In 8 bit or lower?

I settled on 5bit with my projector ED11 OCD
can see a difference on a large screen. Nice work
madshi. And leepery Oblivion was great last night.
Had to watch that movie one more time and never
looked better.
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Old 27th February 2014, 17:15   #23931  |  Link
YxP
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Using ED2 with both options ticked and I'm completely sold I didn't like previous opposite colour dynamic - testbuild, but I just can't see the extra "energy" anymore, even if I kinda wanted to like OD more. Remarkable work madshi.
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Old 27th February 2014, 17:25   #23932  |  Link
James Freeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
For now madTPG enforces mono colored ordered dithering, ignoring the madVR settings. However, static vs dynamic is taken from the settings. Maybe I should enforce that, too, but I guess we should first do some tests to check which is really better...

madTPG does use all the madVR settings - except dithering. Ordered dithering produces very good results for static test patterns, so that's what madTPG is using.
Thanks for clearing that out.
I got the i1 Display Pro, I will gladly help (choose dynamic vs static).
What to look for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YxP View Post
Using ED2 with both options ticked and I'm completely sold I didn't like previous opposite colour dynamic - testbuild, but I just can't see the extra "energy" anymore, even if I kinda wanted to like OD more. Remarkable work madshi.
Same here.
I really like the OD32 option too (better than ED option 1 [AD4]), and glad that its the default for madTPG.
I really hope there will be NO cut back on the available options even though madshi already stated that there will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GREG1292 View Post
I settled on 5bit with my projector ED11 OCD
can see a difference on a large screen.
I think too that 5-bit is enough to fully enjoy the movie.
But I wonder why not go 8-bit if the projector/display can do 8-bit?
Is there a substantial performance gain in 5-bit?
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Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 17:38.
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Old 27th February 2014, 17:36   #23933  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I think in dynamic mode it's clearly better than random dithering. At least that's my impression. I don't like ordered dithering in static mode, though.
madshi, I'd be interested in hearing your subjective impression on mono dynamic vs color dynamic with ordered dithering? Though with the 'options' being global, I guess it cannot change to something else anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Have you tried ED11 dynamic vs A4 static yet, btw?
Not yet. So far I've only been doing some quick 8bit tests to see if I was bothered by the noise energy of ED11 mono dynamic, like I was with A4 dynamic.

This is definitely still the case with A4. I take notice of the dynamic dither rather quickly in 8bit, which is an instant fail. I tested this to re-confirm I still prefer A4 as mono static.

ED11 mono dynamic is rather interesting. Unlike A4, I so far do not seem to be instantly taking notice of the dynamic movement. If I notice it at all, would still require more testing.

Which leaves me with needing to do a comparison of A4 mono static against ED11 mono dynamic which I've yet to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That would cost more work and while I see that it would be "nice" I don't consider it really crucial.
Okay, I guess I'll just workaround it with profiles. At the moment, I cannot say I prefer the same two set of 'options' for any of the dithering algorithms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I have asked Graeme about mono vs dynamic and he wasn't sure about it himself. For now madTPG enforces mono colored ordered dithering, ignoring the madVR settings. However, static vs dynamic is taken from the settings. Maybe I should enforce that, too, but I guess we should first do some tests to check which is really better...
I'd suspect having different patterns for each measurement, could potentially introduce minor error. Though at the end of the day, it likely highly depends on the display and measurement instrument behavior. Instrument measurement speed, instrument measurement surface area in pixels, instrument luminance sensitivity, display response time, display post-processing, etc.

Last edited by cyberbeing; 27th February 2014 at 17:41.
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Old 27th February 2014, 17:47   #23934  |  Link
James Freeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
ED11 mono dynamic is rather interesting. Unlike A4, I so far do not seem to be instantly taking notice of the dynamic movement. If I notice it at all, would still require more testing.
I'm really glad to hear it especially from you..
You were one of the last people that still liked AD4.
You may even be the last person give the word before madshi kills it.
Please take this comment lightly (not seriously)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
I'd suspect having different patterns for each measurement, could potentially introduce minor error.
So you think Static will be better for madTPG?
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Old 27th February 2014, 17:54   #23935  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
So you think Static will be better for madTPG?
Who knows, like madshi mentioned, some tests would need to be done. It shouldn't be that hard to figure it out by just taking some measurements with spotread and checking repeatability and dE.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:01   #23936  |  Link
Shiandow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
I'd suspect having different patterns for each measurement, could potentially introduce minor error. Though at the end of the day, it likely highly depends on the display and measurement instrument behavior. Instrument measurement speed, instrument measurement surface area in pixels, instrument luminance sensitivity, display response time, display post-processing, etc.
I think that static dithering has the same amount of error except it becomes harder to detect since it doesn't change. If you want to know how 'precise' MadVR is at displaying a certain colour it would be better to test with dynamic dithering. Although this all depends on how good those instruments are at handling temporal noise.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:18   #23937  |  Link
*Touche*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I got the i1 Display Pro, I will gladly help (choose dynamic vs static).
What to look for?
Put it on continuous reading with something like HCFR, put on a pattern and change dithering modes. Look for any value changes coming from the meter.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:38   #23938  |  Link
James Freeman
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I did a few "Report Uncalibrated" intermittent runs: Static, Dynamic, Static, Dy...etc..

I (the meter) see no difference at all.
EDIT: Note that MadTPG is only 8-bit, (read my next post).

Code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 37 msec, using delay of 155 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0548 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.96 cd/m^2
White level = 141.75 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.10
Contrast ratio = 2586:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3553
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5716K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5716K, DE 2K to locus =  8.2
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5395K, DE 2K to locus = 11.0
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5505K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 11 bits
Black drift was 0.003581 DE
White drift was 0.066035 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 37 msec, using delay of 155 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0548 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.96 cd/m^2
White level = 141.49 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.10
Contrast ratio = 2581:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3553
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus =  8.2
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5396K, DE 2K to locus = 11.0
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5506K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 11 bits
Black drift was 0.001626 DE
White drift was 0.000000 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 36 msec, using delay of 154 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0548 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.96 cd/m^2
White level = 141.57 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.10
Contrast ratio = 2585:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3554
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus =  8.3
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5395K, DE 2K to locus = 11.1
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5505K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 12 bits
Black drift was 0.002041 DE
White drift was 0.000000 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 36 msec, using delay of 154 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0547 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.96 cd/m^2
White level = 141.49 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.10
Contrast ratio = 2584:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3553
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus =  8.2
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5396K, DE 2K to locus = 11.0
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5506K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 10 bits
Black drift was 0.000955 DE
White drift was 0.058878 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 36 msec, using delay of 154 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0547 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.89 cd/m^2
White level = 141.49 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.11
Contrast ratio = 2585:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3553
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus =  8.2
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5396K, DE 2K to locus = 11.0
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5506K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 10 bits
Black drift was 0.000427 DE
White drift was 0.076807 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Touche*
Put it on continuous reading with something like HCFR, put on a pattern and change dithering modes. Look for any value changes coming from the meter.
I'll try and report.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 19:23.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:40   #23939  |  Link
Shiandow
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The Black/White drift seems to change quite a bit.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:46   #23940  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREG1292 View Post
I settled on 5bit with my projector
Is that to say that your DLP can't spit out more than 5bit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Touche* View Post
In 8 bit or lower?
8bit with a 32" LCD from a 80 cm distance in a pitch black room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
static dithering has the same amount of error except it becomes harder to detect since it doesn't change.
Exactly
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