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Old 27th January 2020, 19:17   #1221  |  Link
Stephen R. Savage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manolito View Post
I just have my reasons to avoid DG software as much as I can...
TFM/TDECIMATE/TIVTC is the product of Kevin "tritical" Stone. It seems you insist on doing things the wrong way for no reason. To produce a DVD from another DVD, there are three valid approaches:
  1. Copy the VOB file. The easy way!
  2. Apply pulldown and encode directly to 60i. The simple way!
  3. Apply pulldown, then apply IVTC and encode as 24p. The efficient way!

Or you could use the "manolito" method which converts 24p soft-telecine by duplicating every 4th frame. This way, your viewers can enjoy terrible frame pacing and stuttering, resulting in an overall lower kill-death ratio and reduced ELO ranking!

Real 3:2 pulldown:
1 2 3 4 -> 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 4

"manolito" pulldown:
1 2 3 4 -> 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 4 4

Last edited by Stephen R. Savage; 27th January 2020 at 19:37.
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Old 27th January 2020, 19:38   #1222  |  Link
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Actually, I just realized that if you do this:
Code:
Video = FFVideoSource("F:\Download\lainvob.vob", track=-1, fpsnum=2997, fpsden=100, colorspace="YV12", seekmode=2)
What you're effectively doing is just applying pulldown. 60i sections will be left as they are, while 24p sections with RFF flags will get one of every 4 frames repeated, resulting in 30p. So you've effectively gotten the same result as honoring pulldown flags would have, except it's gonna look more stutter-y than normal soft pulldown would have, because instead of having the usual 3:2 cadence where every other frame gets an extra field, every fourth frame gets two extra fields instead. You put all of the catch-up you've accumulated over four frames in one place instead of spreading it out.

So yeah, don't do that. I still think ignoring pulldown flags is the best default and gives the best result in general if your goal is to encode progressive, but for your use case I don't see how it makes any sense.

e: Stephen got there first
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Old 27th January 2020, 19:42   #1223  |  Link
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Originally Posted by videoh View Post
Don't forget that we now have other source filters that do the right thing by honoring pulldown.
We have just one, and this is the latest HolyWu build of LSMASH. ffms2 and DSS2Mod are not following your lead so far.

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Did you have any comment on my earlier questions? For example, how would you handle a transport stream with irregular frame repeats?
I did ask several times for a link to such a file. No result...

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Care to share those reasons with us?
Bad Karma

Last edited by manolito; 27th January 2020 at 19:46.
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Old 27th January 2020, 19:52   #1224  |  Link
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What you're effectively doing is just applying pulldown.
Yes, I do know this. I repeat frames instead of fields, and most folks agree that repeating fields should give smoother motion. Being from PAL land I always found that even standard 3:2 NTSC pulldown results in ugly motion judder, it's just that people from NTSC land are so used to it that they don't even notice it any more.
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Old 27th January 2020, 19:59   #1225  |  Link
TheFluff
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I'd say what most people probably do around here is encode progressive content as progressive without duplicate frames, actually. Either by ignoring pulldown flags or by applying IVTC. They don't actually make interlaced displays anymore, y'know?
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Old 27th January 2020, 20:10   #1226  |  Link
Groucho2004
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They don't actually make interlaced displays anymore, y'know?
Yes, but manolito is quite passionate about his good old CRT TV (as well as a non-SSE2 CPU). To each his own.
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Old 27th January 2020, 20:31   #1227  |  Link
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Groucho, you are absolutely correct. Keeping my old hardware I do hardly sacrifice anything, and I keep my carbon dioxide footprint low. Sustainability, repair instead of throwing things into the trash bin...

//OT//
I saw that you have compiled a ColorMatrix 2.6 build which I could use for UHD sources. It just does not like my non-SSE2 CPU. Any chance for a build which does not require SSE2?

It is not really too important because my ancient non-SSE2 computer will hardly see any UHD source files. But I like to have consistent tool versions on all of my machines.
//End OT//
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Old 27th January 2020, 20:32   #1228  |  Link
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Any chance for a build which does not require SSE2?
No problem.
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Old 27th January 2020, 20:38   #1229  |  Link
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Originally Posted by manolito View Post
Being from PAL land I always found that even standard 3:2 NTSC pulldown results in ugly motion judder, it's just that people from NTSC land are so used to it that they don't even notice it any more.
Yeah, but the judder caused by duplicating every fourth frame is noticeably worse than the result of 2:3 pulldown. Being accustomed to the latter doesn't make the former any less annoying.
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Old 27th January 2020, 20:48   #1230  |  Link
TheFluff
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Originally Posted by manolito View Post
Groucho, you are absolutely correct. Keeping my old hardware I do hardly sacrifice anything, and I keep my carbon dioxide footprint low. Sustainability, repair instead of throwing things into the trash bin...
I don't know much about CO2 emissions caused by the manufacture of TFT screens, but considering the German insistence on burning coal for power generation, the energy savings you would've had by now if you had switched to a TFT panel with a LED backlight 10 years ago would probably have made up for the manufacturing emissions several times over... You could've bought used, too.

Like, yeah, I can absolutely sympathize with repairing things, I do it myself a lot, but come on. Don't pretend this is anything other than obstinacy at this point.

Last edited by TheFluff; 27th January 2020 at 20:53.
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Old 27th January 2020, 21:22   #1231  |  Link
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Groucho, you are absolutely correct. Keeping my old hardware I do hardly sacrifice anything, and I keep my carbon dioxide footprint low. Sustainability, repair instead of throwing things into the trash bin...
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the old hardware (especially old CPU and GPU) need more power to do the same operation that can be done in new hardware? which mean more energy and heat which mean again more carbon dioxide footprint?
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Old 27th January 2020, 21:35   #1232  |  Link
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the old hardware (especially old CPU and GPU) need more power to do the same operation that can be done in new hardware? which mean more energy and heat which mean again more carbon dioxide footprint?
Yes, especially a CRT consumes a lot more power than a modern LCD/LED screen as TheFluff already mentioned.
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Old 27th January 2020, 21:39   #1233  |  Link
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Yes, Core and Nehalem burns more coal to run. Nehalem idles at 100w while i7-9700k idles at 40w. When they are loaded they use more electric.
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Old 27th January 2020, 21:44   #1234  |  Link
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Yes, Core and Nehalem burns more coal to run. Nehalem idles at 100w while i7-9700k idles at 40w. When they are loaded they use more electric.
manolito uses a P3 Coppermine from around 2000 (130 nm manufacturing process).
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Old 27th January 2020, 21:51   #1235  |  Link
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Yes, especially a CRT consumes a lot more power than a modern LCD/LED screen as TheFluff already mentioned.
yes but not like old cpu vs new one, old CRT will need around 100 W but LCD need maybe around 50 W, but if you use some old cpu (non-SSE2) to did some filtering it will use around 100 W for many Hours for whole video, but same filter and video in Modern cpu (even sandy bridge) will be only few minutes with that 100 W
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Old 27th January 2020, 22:55   #1236  |  Link
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yes but not like old cpu vs new one, old CRT will need around 100 W but LCD need maybe around 50 W
It depends, I guess. My old 32 inch Sony CRT used about 130 W, my current Panasonic 42 inch LCD (which is already 7 years old) 35 W.
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Last edited by Groucho2004; 27th January 2020 at 22:58.
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Old 27th January 2020, 23:03   #1237  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Groucho2004 View Post
manolito uses a P3 Coppermine from around 2000 (130 nm manufacturing process).
Quote:
Originally Posted by real.finder View Post
yes but not like old cpu vs new one, old CRT will need around 100 W but LCD need maybe around 50 W, but if you use some old cpu (non-SSE2) to did some filtering it will use around 100 W for many Hours for whole video, but same filter and video in Modern cpu (even sandy bridge) will be only few minutes with that 100 W
Coppermine is a 180 nm processor (wiki). Assuming he has a fast 1 GHz version, he is using 30 W TDP to run a computation that could complete in 1/640th the time* on a modern 8x 5 GHz 95 W processor. In other words, his computer produces 200 times the CO2 emissions of modern equipment. Now, he could upgrade to a 130 nm Tualatin refresh (wiki) and get an amazing 1.4 GHz, in which case it would only be 140 times the CO2 emissions...

*Modern vs archaic: 5x freq * 4x IPC * 4x SIMD * 8x cores = 640x

Last edited by Stephen R. Savage; 27th January 2020 at 23:07.
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Old 27th January 2020, 23:24   #1238  |  Link
Groucho2004
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Coppermine is a 180 nm processor (wiki).
Ooops, got that mixed up with Tualatin methinks.
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Old Yesterday, 00:07   #1239  |  Link
Atak_Snajpera
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on a modern 8x 5 GHz 95 W processor
Haha! More like 300+ W.

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