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Old 30th May 2013, 19:55   #181  |  Link
jq963152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beelzebubu View Post
That's a great point, and we're happy to do so - see here.

The given source files were converted to y4m/720p using "ffmpeg -i $file -an -y -vf scale=-1:720 -vframes 1000 -pix_fmt yuv420p in.y4m", then encoded with x264 using "--preset veryslow --profile high --keyint infinite --pass 1/2 --stats $statsfile --bitrate X -o out.264 in.y4m", and encoded with vpxenc using "--good --cpu-used=0 --threads=0 --profile=0 --lag-in-frames=25 --min-q=0 --max-q=63 --cq-level=20 --end-usage=0 --auto-alt-ref=1 --passes=2 --kf-max-dist=9999 --kf-min-dist=0 --drop-frame=0 --static-thresh=0 --bias-pct=50 --minsection-pct=0 --maxsection-pct=2000 --arnr-maxframes=7 --arnr-strength=5 --arnr-type=3 --sharpness=0 --undershoot-pct=100 --target-bitrate=X --codec=vp9 -o out.webm in.y4m".
Beelzebubu,

could you please tell us what x264 settings are being used by YouTube for each quality option ("360p", "480p", "720p", "1080p", "Original" and so on...)?

Unfortunately the settings are not embedded in the videos:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...08#post1628408

Would be appreciated.

PS: Or even better, could you make the settings embed again?
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Old 30th May 2013, 20:02   #182  |  Link
mandarinka
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I have chosen my sample for a single reason - nobody tests any clips like this. Note that this isn't particularly "anime" sample - it shakes, has noise, is cel (not used anymore today), is not digital, has grain. It might be closer to film sources (16mm in this case, I think?).

And it perfectly shows how much VP encoders suck when you are targeting transparent quality. Of course, I didn't use transparent bitrates (although a few months back I tried 2 megabits) but you can clearly see where VP9 aims to be - it is effectively tuning for PSNR and nothing else. This is no news though. I just hope the format itself isn't compromised in visual quality by development with an encoder that sorta ignores it.
IMHO this is an interesting type of footage to try (definitely more fun that Foreman and I would say less crazy than Parkrun/Parkjoy) and as benwaggoner says, it is better suited to no tuning or tune film in x264.
(And when I say interesting, I don't mean just the battle bikini...)

Here is a link with an archive that contains 1) vp9, vp8 and x264 encodes I posted screens from. 2) lossless reencode of the source footage 3) lossless reencode of teh VP9 encode, so that you can actually watch it (in motion, it looks worse than on stills, because there is a weird flickering of brightness in many scenes, I think it is a nasty side-effect of the altref smoothing or something?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jq963152 View Post
Unfortunately it's only a comparison of x264 vs. VP9, without showing the original source, but IMHO "encode b" (VP9) looks better than "encode a" (x264) because VP9 has noticeably less artifacts.
Now this is IMHO a fallacy. Note how VP9 used little to no bits to preserve the dirty/grainy backgrounds (or flat areas - you can see blocking on the girl's hair for example, because VP9 didn't code any residual at all there, I think). So naturally it has much more bits to throw at the outlines, but that hardly means it is more efficient at compression. Given the amount of smoothing it does, its improvements on the outlines are very meager IMHO (the cause could be primarily in sucky ratecontrol though).

You can watch the actual encodes if you download the zip. I think you would agree that x264 is more watchable.

Last edited by mandarinka; 30th May 2013 at 20:23.
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Old 30th May 2013, 22:24   #183  |  Link
MasterNobody
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Here is my little (3 samples) VP9 vs x264 test. Not very representative (need more samples) but at least I didn't used parkrun / park_joy for test which were criticized as insane.
Here is archive xls-files with metrics and plots:VP9_vs_x264_metrics.zip
And here encoded samples with cmd-files I used for encoding: VP9_vs_x264_samples.zip

P.S. Sorry, no time to make screenshots or to make formatted post with tables so download archives.
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Old 30th May 2013, 23:36   #184  |  Link
benwaggoner
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Here is archive xls-files with metrics and plots:VP9_vs_x264_metrics.zip
And here encoded samples with cmd-files I used for encoding: VP9_vs_x264_samples.zip
I don't see any way to download anything other than an .exe from that hosting provider.
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Old 31st May 2013, 02:03   #185  |  Link
phate89
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I don't see any way to download anything other than an .exe from that hosting provider.
Uncheck the checkbox that tells you accept to download with their download tool, click on the button download now (or something like that, i don't remember exactly) , the page reloads, click on "Click here to start download from sendspace"
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Old 31st May 2013, 10:49   #186  |  Link
dapperdan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandarinka View Post
I have chosen my sample for a single reason - nobody tests any clips like this. Note that this isn't particularly "anime" sample - it shakes, has noise, is cel (not used anymore today), is not digital, has grain. It might be closer to film sources (16mm in this case, I think?).

And it perfectly shows how much VP encoders suck when you are targeting transparent quality. Of course, I didn't use transparent bitrates (although a few months back I tried 2 megabits) but you can clearly see where VP9 aims to be - it is effectively tuning for PSNR and nothing else.
I understand (I think) why grain is an issue for PSNR (in short because the best way to "preserve" it is basically to fake it) but why would preserving the detail on a static painted background not give you a higher PSNR score?
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Old 13th June 2013, 11:26   #187  |  Link
dapperdan
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The VP9 Bitstream (at least for "profile 0") is now frozen, according to the latest info posted to this thread:

https://groups.google.com/a/webmproject.org/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/webm-discuss/UzoX7owhwB0
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Old 13th June 2013, 19:31   #188  |  Link
mandarinka
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Am I the only person that finds it very weird that changes to the format are pursued and hectically made in the last few days and even hours prior to the bitstream finalization?
IMHO there is no way there could have been enough review to really do this all properly and search for possible problems.

Compare that to the lengthy and careful process HEVC has been through... true, maybe it was too lengthy and too slow, but surely that can't hurt as much as this hurry.
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Old 13th June 2013, 20:32   #189  |  Link
hajj_3
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interesting, their website said the bitstream would be finalised on 17th, maybe they are testing until 17th then going public saying it is finalised assuming they don't find mistakes.
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Old 16th June 2013, 08:15   #190  |  Link
Bathrone
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Has anyone got any links to windows builds please in preferably 64 bit or 32 bit if I have too? Im having troubles with cygwin and am after the latest compile from the git experimental tree from webm
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Old 16th June 2013, 15:36   #191  |  Link
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Has anyone got any links to windows builds please in preferably 64 bit or 32 bit if I have too? Im having troubles with cygwin and am after the latest compile from the git experimental tree from webm
This might be of use: http://git.chromium.org/gitweb/?p=webm/libvpx.git;a=summary
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Old 16th June 2013, 16:08   #192  |  Link
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https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=180280

Quote:
Remove VP9 flag, and enable VP9 support by default.
Chromium has VP9 decoding support enabled by default in latest builds.

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Old 17th June 2013, 06:14   #193  |  Link
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Has anyone got any links to windows builds please in preferably 64 bit or 32 bit if I have too? Im having troubles with cygwin and am after the latest compile from the git experimental tree from webm
x86 / x64 builds from today.
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Old 17th June 2013, 16:53   #194  |  Link
mzso
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Anyone have any ffmpeg vp9 enabled builds for windows?
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Old 17th June 2013, 22:49   #195  |  Link
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a. I hope the official release will be multithreaded, since single threading vp9 encoding is just too slow to be really useful.
b. does someone know what are valid arguments for, the new parameters ?
Code:
    --lossless=<arg>               Lossless mode
            --frame-parallel=<arg>         Enable frame parallel decodability features
            --tile-columns=<arg>           Number of tile columns to use, log2
            --tile-rows=<arg>              Number of tile rows to use, log2
c. hope will be faster with providing a usable documentation than the last time (when vp8 was released)
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Old 18th June 2013, 08:32   #196  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selur View Post
a. I hope the official release will be multithreaded, since single threading vp9 encoding is just too slow to be really useful.
Known issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selur View Post
b. does someone know what are valid arguments for, the new parameters ?
Code:
    --lossless=<arg>               Lossless mode
--lossless=1, dunno about the rest.
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Old 18th June 2013, 09:39   #197  |  Link
Bathrone
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x86 / x64 builds from today.
Legend thankyou Merci
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Old 18th June 2013, 11:08   #198  |  Link
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Quote:
Known issue...
LOL and then you read that 'Google urges (for) fast adoption of VP9',... (+ but good that they have '-t <arg>, --threads=<arg> Max number of threads to use' as an option *gig*)

Quote:
--lossless=1, dunno about the rest.
Thanks, didn't work for my before, since I didn't set '--min-q=0 --max-q=0' since I assumed that '--lossless=1' would automatically do this.

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Old 18th June 2013, 12:30   #199  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selur View Post
Quote:
--lossless=1, dunno about the rest.
Thanks, didn't work for my before, since I didn't set '--min-q=0 --max-q=0' since I assumed that '--lossless=1' would automatically do this.

Cu Selur
vpxenc definitively needs presets like x264.
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Old 18th June 2013, 17:07   #200  |  Link
Selur
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I think first we need to a usable way to playback it.
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