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Old 14th February 2019, 08:28   #54721  |  Link
Charky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Take a 4K SDR video downscale it to 1080 and do a comparison.. Tell us if you can see any difference. What is "couche distance" though? LOL.

Some people that are buying TVs tell me that they're sitting 3+ meters away from 32" sets.. and I'm like 0_0 How do you enjoy watching something so small from so far away? It's basically torture.
It honestly makes me mad seeing more static wall than moving picture.
I'm not saying that 4K is useless or impossible to tell apart from 1080p in itself, I'm saying that upscaling tech has become so good that, at normal viewing distance (which for me is around 2,5 meters), on the same panel, it's become hard to tell apart native 4K content and upscaled 1080p content. Maybe I could on a VP, but mine is just 1080p

On my TV, I already tried comparing 1080p (upscaled with NGU Sharp) and 2160p bluray ISOs or remuxes of the same movie. As said by someone in a previous post, I only found minor differences when I looked for them on specific shots with sharp textures (and even then, only wheen rubbing my nose on the screen). In real life, moving content, it's almost impossible.

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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Games are more obvious due to aliasing difference.
I would have told you the same a week ago, but I'm not even sure of that anymore.

I bought Mass Effect Andromeda on PS4 Pro last week to see if it was as bad as everyone said it was (spoiler alert : it's actually a very good game). The game is badly optimized and the PS4 Pro struggles with a 4K output (which is, I believe, "only" 1800p upscaled to 2160p by the console), rendering the game at less than a constant 30fps and it was driving me mad to see the game stutter. So I tried setting the PS4 Pro to output 1080p and let my LG 55C8 do the upscaling, expecting at least a slightly blurry picture I could have lived with. I didn't even get that and honestly can't tell the difference between 1800p upscaled to 2160p by the console, or 1080p upscaled to 2160p by the TV. I didn't even notice an increase in input lag...

Last edited by Charky; 14th February 2019 at 09:31.
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Old 14th February 2019, 09:23   #54722  |  Link
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I was used to watching a 120" screen at 1.5-2m. Form that I realised it was viewing angle that mattered - not screen size. When watching something with a ton of resolution that's formatted for an IMAX screen (e.g. Dunkirk) I sit 0.7m away from a 65" OLED. That gives the same viewing angle as a real IMAX Laser theatre but with real black and a ton more contrast. When you sit in pitch black and have a velvet curtain laden bat cave for a projector after an adjustment period your brain is fooled into thinking it's a huge screen. My fetish for large viewing angles has always made me interested in MadVR's NGU Sharp - and I do love it up close. From 40 degree viewing angles though, it's not worth it.

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I probably speak for a lot if us when I say I mess more with the settings than actually watching full movies all the time, part of the joys and woes of tweaking things I guess.
That's exactly what I was doing prior to the Popcorn Hour A100 and before that I had a Haupaggue Show Center. I got real fed up with it. I also have plenty of dedicated players (LG's own internal player, Shield, Apple TV, VTEN for 3D) so I've told myself if my HTPC messes up when watching a movie - rather than trying to fix it on the fly I'll flip to the dedicated player. That way you only lose at max 60 seconds and don't ruin the enjoyment of your movie/tv show. Then go and fix it the next day.
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Old 14th February 2019, 10:31   #54723  |  Link
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Originally Posted by RXP View Post
I was used to watching a 120" screen at 1.5-2m. Form that I realised it was viewing angle that mattered - not screen size. When watching something with a ton of resolution that's formatted for an IMAX screen (e.g. Dunkirk) I sit 0.7m away from a 65" OLED. That gives the same viewing angle as a real IMAX Laser theatre but with real black and a ton more contrast. When you sit in pitch black and have a velvet curtain laden bat cave for a projector after an adjustment period your brain is fooled into thinking it's a huge screen. My fetish for large viewing angles has always made me interested in MadVR's NGU Sharp - and I do love it up close. From 40 degree viewing angles though, it's not worth it.
Yeah you're not the only one, that's why VR movie watching is a thing nowadays...

That said, I'm no ophthalmologist (or your mother ), but I'm not sure watching a panel this big so close for long periods of time is very good for your eyes (and it's certainly not what most of us would call normal viewing distance )
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Old 14th February 2019, 10:54   #54724  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Charky View Post
I'm not saying that 4K is useless or impossible to tell apart from 1080p in itself, I'm saying that upscaling tech has become so good that, at normal viewing distance (which for me is around 2,5 meters), on the same panel, it's become hard to tell apart native 4K content and upscaled 1080p content. Maybe I could on a VP, but mine is just 1080p
Interesting, my 55" TV is also 1080p + bt.709 and I *see* the difference between standard 1080p bluray and 4k hdr bluray (by madvr test pixelshader + ssim2d luma downscaling) from ~3 meters. Whether it's due to the deliberately destroyed FullHD bluray or not, I don't know. And this was the only (!) reason that I replaced my laptop (with an htpc).
And I have to say that previously it didn't worth for me to watch 4k hdr content with hdr2sdr 3dlut or the latest release v92.17 pixelshader: the image was not on pair with fullhd bluray.
But now, if I can, I always choose 4k hdr or 4k over fullhd content.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:08   #54725  |  Link
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Interesting, my 55" TV is also 1080p + bt.709 and I *see* the difference between standard 1080p bluray and 4k hdr bluray (by madvr test pixelshader + ssim2d luma downscaling) from ~3 meters. Whether it's due to the deliberately destroyed FullHD bluray or not, I don't know. And this was the only (!) reason that I replaced my laptop (with an htpc).
And I have to say that previously it didn't worth for me to watch 4k hdr content with hdr2sdr 3dlut or the latest release v92.17 pixelshader: the image was not on pair with fullhd bluray.
But now, if I can, I always choose 4k hdr or 4k over fullhd content.
Well, I'm not surprised, it seems widely accepted on this forum and elsewhere that a properly downscaled UHD source will look better than the same in FHD only.

TBH I've never really looked into this because, as of recently, I didn't have the horsepower in my HTPC to properly play and downscale UHD sources.
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Old 14th February 2019, 19:30   #54726  |  Link
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I'm sure you're aware that there are a lot of charts and online calculators for viewing distance and angular resolution. I like this because it takes into account the visual acuity:

http://phrogz.net/tmp/ScreenDens2In.html

In my case with a 65'' screen at 1.5 m I can definitely see the difference between 4k and upscaled 1080p. But yeah, the content matters, I've been watching 4k transfers of old movies and the only benefit seems to be limited to the film grain.
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Old 14th February 2019, 20:06   #54727  |  Link
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On a 55"4K OLED , 2.5M distance with just 4K res and no HDR , for me it is very noticable. Much more detail and drawing distance , add HDR in the mix and my experience is usually jaw-dropping , especially if it's not a 2k upscale UHD disc/content

It's of course very important to have the right MadVR settings (see Asmodian's High Settings and tune down where necessary, till you hit 20-30ms with smooth playback)

I finally got Tonemapping working yesterday on 'just a GTX1060' and ca't wait to push it further with a RTX2070 in 6 weeks

Try opening scene of Blue Planet II (the wave scene, starts after a min or 2)

After getting my new GPU I will get my hands dirty with a DisplayPro colorimeter and the several cailbration software that I've collecting ... can't wait !

This is very much like the 'upgraderitus with audio' , a 100x more complicated, but luckily much cheaper ;-)
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Old 14th February 2019, 23:31   #54728  |  Link
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Which deinterlacing algorithm is better to use for DVD and SD? LAV -> Yadif (25/30) or madVR (ivtc) -> "force film mode"?

Last edited by DMU; 14th February 2019 at 23:36.
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Old 14th February 2019, 23:52   #54729  |  Link
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Depends: Is it PAL or NTSC (and if NTSC: is it really interlaced or telecined)?
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Old 15th February 2019, 00:16   #54730  |  Link
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Depends: Is it PAL or NTSC (and if NTSC: is it really interlaced or telecined)?
If not difficult, can you explain to me for all cases? Thank.
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Old 15th February 2019, 00:35   #54731  |  Link
LigH
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Well, it is quite basic knowledge of video processing:

If it is telecined (Film => NTSC), use Inverse Telecine (IVTC); else - if it is interlaced, use a deinterlacer (preferably with bobber to double the frame rate).

And if it is a cartoon, optimize manually.

And if it is messed up by a norm conversion, dump it. More details: "exotic interlacing" by scharfis_brain (English translation hosted by StainlessS).

"Difficult" is no sensible expression in this topic. I own a DVD which has been destroyed beyond repair by a failed attempt to deinterlace it in the studio providing the original content (Kiriku).
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:43   #54732  |  Link
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madVR ivtc can detect all kinds of pattern so "cartoon" is pretty much no difference for it then film.

PsF pal is technically telecine too and using ivtc instead of deinterlancing is usually better to or deactivating deinterlancing.

the "best" deinterlancer we currently have in madVR is video deinterlancing which is frame adaptive on all GPUs
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:53   #54733  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
I'm sure you're aware that there are a lot of charts and online calculators for viewing distance and angular resolution. I like this because it takes into account the visual acuity:

http://phrogz.net/tmp/ScreenDens2In.html

In my case with a 65'' screen at 1.5 m I can definitely see the difference between 4k and upscaled 1080p. But yeah, the content matters, I've been watching 4k transfers of old movies and the only benefit seems to be limited to the film grain.
Well I don't think you're applying the math correctly when it comes to viewing.


To notice the difference between 4K and 2K, that requires quite a close viewing distance. This is problematic in that you see so little of the frame.

So are we watching the movie, or trying to find little pixels ?


It might work as a technical standard, but it's simply impractical to be CLOSE ENOUGH , all for the sake of discerning ppi.

We're interested in the Whole picture. And that's fundamentally how they came up with the 2K standard to begin with.

They knew that Limitation for comfort viewing is well out at 2-4 meters for most sizes of TV screens.

And THAT being the limiting factor, they applied the acuity function and decided ~2K resolution is more than sufficient.


I'm not against 4K, but you can't apply the acuity function backwards, and say, let's sit this close, because we have to notice these 2 lines are different lines.
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:57   #54734  |  Link
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Originally Posted by svengun View Post
On a 55"4K OLED , 2.5M distance with just 4K res and no HDR , for me it is very noticable. Much more detail and drawing distance , add HDR in the mix and my experience is usually jaw-dropping , especially if it's not a 2k upscale UHD disc/content

It's of course very important to have the right MadVR settings (see Asmodian's High Settings and tune down where necessary, till you hit 20-30ms with smooth playback)

I finally got Tonemapping working yesterday on 'just a GTX1060' and ca't wait to push it further with a RTX2070 in 6 weeks

Try opening scene of Blue Planet II (the wave scene, starts after a min or 2)

After getting my new GPU I will get my hands dirty with a DisplayPro colorimeter and the several cailbration software that I've collecting ... can't wait !

This is very much like the 'upgraderitus with audio' , a 100x more complicated, but luckily much cheaper ;-)
i1displaypro changed my life..

Probably for the worse.. because Now I am always looking at Spectrometers to go with the i1display, which is only a colorimeter.

Once you get i1dp, the image is much better, but then you realize, it's still WRONG, because you don't have the spectral correction data.. and for whatever reason, spectrometers are ~$1000+, recommended ones are $3000 (Before recertification)
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:31   #54735  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
To notice the difference between 4K and 2K, that requires quite a close viewing distance. This is problematic in that you see so little of the frame.
It's not problematic at all as long as you don't have to move your head and the frame stays in your field of vision. Even with a smaller screen, you're only ever seeing the full detail of what small part of the picture your eyes are focusing on.
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They knew that Limitation for comfort viewing is well out at 2-4 meters for most sizes of TV screens.
The common distance of 2-4 meters is not for comfort of viewing, it's because it's the distance needed to accomodate what constitutes the usual sitting area of living room i.e. several seats and a table, with bigger sitting areas being further away from the screen. Nothing prevents you from positioning your seats closer to the screen if you only have one or two, on the contrary it will provide for a better viewing experience with HD flat panels, and the idea that being too close to your TV is uncomfortable is a relic from the days of CRTs that flickered like hell and had really low pixel pitch.
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:32   #54736  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
To notice the difference between 4K and 2K, that requires quite a close viewing distance
Fortunately I have a very good vision. I don't need at all to be so close to see the difference, I do it only because I like the inmersion feeling. So yes you're right, this shouldn't be the decisive factor.
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Old 15th February 2019, 04:41   #54737  |  Link
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It's not problematic at all as long as you don't have to move your head and the frame stays in your field of vision. Even with a smaller screen, you're only ever seeing the full detail of what small part of the picture your eyes are focusing on.The common distance of 2-4 meters is not for comfort of viewing, it's because it's the distance needed to accomodate what constitutes the usual sitting area of living room i.e. several seats and a table, with bigger sitting areas being further away from the screen. Nothing prevents you from positioning your seats closer to the screen if you only have one or two, on the contrary it will provide for a better viewing experience with HD flat panels, and the idea that being too close to your TV is uncomfortable is a relic from the days of CRTs that flickered like hell and had really low pixel pitch.

That is incorrect.


The resting vergence distance for the eye is ~1.5meter

The natural relaxed focal distance of the eye's lens is ~1.5meter

This is minimal distance something should be viewed when considering Viewing Comfort.


2-4 meter is absolutely the proper distance given the size of most people's domiciles and the availability of screen sizes. Farther is always better if not constrained by Size of equipment or Space.
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:40   #54738  |  Link
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The thing I don't understand all viewing distances aside, is that people say you need to spend X on a really good OLED TV with HDR and High Nits, yet everyone says the most common TVs still do not have a high enough brightness for HDR.

You see comments on TV threads saying well your TV is only 350 NITS, so you do not have proper HDR etc etc.

But yet you have madshi and others tweaking the heck out of HDR-SDR on projectors with even lower NITS and they are saying that they don't want to use HDR passthrough as it looks so much better.

So if HDR relies on brightness, how can you make SDR look better ?
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:52   #54739  |  Link
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So if HDR relies on brightness, how can you make SDR look better ?
You can't, in theory, but reality is another matter Meaning the tonemapping of those TV sets with high luminance aren't perfect either (at least with hdr10, because let's not forget about DolbyVision).
Let's suppose we have a 120 nits device. Standard fullhd bluray is maxing out at 100 nits. With hdr10 the same 100 nits rule applies and the values above 100 reserved for highlights only. So, in our case we have 20 nits to squash every highlights in.
But don't ask what happens with projectors that only capable of 50 nits

And that's the "beauty" of the whole topic: everybody can only talk about his/her setup/display without seeing anything else right beside of it! Because it's not that easy to drag around 55-65" displays (compared to a mobile phone) to your friends' house to make comparison
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:06   #54740  |  Link
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You can't, in theory, but reality is another matter
Makes sense. I would just like a simple calibration setup for HDR, as I think its great to have all these options, but unless your TV has even the simplest calibration you are chasing your tail.

But I cant see anything tutorial wise that is for setting up basic HDR as a starting point, all the reviews you read say turn everything off, but don't touch this or that, and thats all you have left to try and get a good picture, so lost with HDR tbh. Especially when every TV manufacturer labels options differently.

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