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Old 6th May 2008, 08:51   #4641  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tebasuna51 View Post
You includes the -extensible parameter to output wav with the WAVE_FORMAT_EXTENSIBLE header (henceforth WFE).
I like this improvement but I have some comments:
- When use WFE header is mandatory a fix channel order.
- The most useful new data (maybe the unique) is the Channel Mask to specify the channels present in the audiodata.
- When is unknown the channels present in the source is recommended use a default Channel Mask based in the number of channels.
- When we know the source channels the channel mask must be set in accord.

1) ABOUT DEFAULTS

I think the default used in eac3to for 4 channels (0x000F = FL FR FC LF) must be changed for 0x0033 = FL FR BL BR (Quadro) more usual and compatible with Flac/Ogg multichannel.
A WFE wav with maskchannel 0x000F is rejected by flac.

The default used for 8 channel (0x00FF = FL FR FC LF BL BR FLC FRC) is not usual, maybe the default can be 0x063F = FL FR FC LF BL BR SL SR

When I try know the default for 7 channels using a 3/3.1 wav file:
Code:
eac3to v2.45
command line: "D:\Test\AudioN\eac3to\eac3to.exe" "E:\Test\7_61.wav" "E:\Test\z331.wav" -extensible
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WAV, 6.1 channels, 0:00:20, 16 bits, 48khz
Doubling 7th channel...
Reading WAV...
Writing WAV...
Creating file "E:\Test\z331.wav"...
eac3to processing took 1 second.
Done.
For what "Doubling 7th channel..."?
Maybe the default for 7 channel can be: 0x013F = FL FR FC LF BL BR BC

2) ABOUT KNOW SOURCE AC3

At least with ac3 source we can obtain perfect WFE wav output:
Code:
acmod.lfe ac3 channels      Mask and MS channels ordered      Detect-MaskCh eac3to   libav remap
-------------------------  ---------------------------------  ---------------------  ------------
1  1/0.0  C                0x0004  FC                         1.0    0x0004  ok      not needed
1  1/0.1  C LFE            0x000C  FC LF                      2.0    0x0003  (1)(2)  not needed
2  2/0.0  L R              0x0003  FL FR                      2.0    0x0003  ok      not needed
2  2/0.1  L R LFE          0x000B  FL FR LF                   2.1    0x0007  (2)     not needed
4  2/1.0  L R S            0x0103  FL FR BC                   2/1    0x0007  (2)     not needed
4  2/1.1  L R S LFE        0x010B  FL FR LF BC                2/1.1  0x000F  (2)(3)  -0,1,3,2,4,5
6  2/2.0  L R SL SR        0x0033  FL FR BL BR                2/2    0x000F  (2)     not needed
6  2/2.1  L R SL SR LFE    0x003B  FL FR LF BL BR             2/2.1  0x0037  (2)(3)  -0,1,4,2,3,5
3  3/0.0  L C R            0x0007  FL FR FC                   3/0    0x0007     (3)  -0,2,1,3,4,5
3  3/0.1  L C R LFE        0x000F  FL FR FC LF                3/0.1  0x000F     (3)  -0,2,1,3,4,5
5  3/1.0  L C R S          0x0107  FL FR FC BC                3/1    0x000F  (2)(3)  -0,2,1,3,4,5
5  3/1.1  L C R S LFE      0x010F  FL FR FC LF BC             3/1.1  0x0037  (2)(3)  -0,2,1,4,3,5
7  3/2.0  L C R SL SR      0x0037  FL FR FC BL BR             5.0    0x0037     (3)  -0,2,1,3,4,5
7  3/2.1  L C R SL SR LFE  0x003F  FL FR FC LF BL BR          5.1    0x003F  ok      already done

(1) Wrong detection, must be 1.1 (not important because mono + LFE is really strange)
(2) Default mask for channel number, the correct mask can be easyly put based in detection
(3) When decoded with libav need remapping channels.


That's extremely detailed and helpful information - thanks much!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tebasuna51 View Post
When I try know the default for 7 channels using a 3/3.1 wav file:
For what "Doubling 7th channel..."?
This is complicated. Let me try to explain: When I tried to convert my "The Descent" Blu-Ray to MKV, I found out that the LPCM track (which was credited as 6.1) was in reality 7.1 with both back channels being identical. I'm not fully sure but I guess that multichannel Blu-Ray LPCM tracks must not be 6.1 but can only be either 5.1 or 7.1. So I thought it'd make sense to convert all 6.1 stuff to 7.1 in eac3to to make it Blu-Ray compatible. Not sure if that is/was the right thing to do. Maybe not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tebasuna51 View Post
At least with ac3 source we can obtain perfect WFE wav output: [...]
As your charts clearly show, eac3to currently only handles mono, stereo, 5.1 (and 7.1) correctly. For all other formats eac3to's channel mapping behaviour is more or less "random". The reason for that is that I'm not really having any true channel mapping in my whole processing chain right now. Instead I've hard coded extra code everywhere for the supported channel configurations. This is not good, and I definitely need to change it. It's just that there was always something more important to do first... But I think it might be time now (or soon) to implement "proper" channel mapping support.

BTW, do you have any experience with which WAV format is the more compatible one with most applications/media players? Is it the extensible one or the simpler one? I'm wondering which WAV header format I should make default...
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Old 6th May 2008, 08:55   #4642  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPH0NE View Post
We DO need to know how to make these files just like the studios are doing cause we are obviously missing something here.
The missing thing is simply that TsMuxer needs to be changed to support either big multichannel WAV files or multiple mono WAV files.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPH0NE View Post
Maybe we should do:

eac3to.exe source.m2ts destination.wavs

then use another encoder to make the multi channel PCM/WAV? But, what encoder and what settings and how do we ensure proper LPCM channel configuration?
That doesn't make any sense at all. Guys, please understand that eac3to is doing all it can. You can try 20 other programs to create the multi channel WAV file and you'll always end up with similar problems. The problem is most probably NOT in eac3to's WAV creation. The problem is in TsMuxer. And unless you get TsMuxer fixed, you can forget about making WAV -> TsMuxer working properly. It's as simple as that.
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Old 6th May 2008, 14:46   #4643  |  Link
EPiPH0NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post


That doesn't make any sense at all. Guys, please understand that eac3to is doing all it can. You can try 20 other programs to create the multi channel WAV file and you'll always end up with similar problems. The problem is most probably NOT in eac3to's WAV creation. The problem is in TsMuxer. And unless you get TsMuxer fixed, you can forget about making WAV -> TsMuxer working properly. It's as simple as that.

Well if that doesn't make sense then I guess I've hit a brick wall and my axe is dull. I'm taking off the hardhat and I'll let someone else figure it out and in the mean time just use segmented files. I could understand these files not working with tsMuxeR, which I and others have reported it but Roman is not as active here as you, but I can't even get Scenarist to take them either because of improper channel config. What is the proper channel config I need to set in eac3to to get these into Scenarist or will your new "-extensible" option fix this?
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Old 6th May 2008, 14:55   #4644  |  Link
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Yeah, the "-extensible" option might things work with Scenarist. Not fully sure though if Scenarist handles big WAV files properly!
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Old 6th May 2008, 15:33   #4645  |  Link
EPiPH0NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yeah, the "-extensible" option might things work with Scenarist. Not fully sure though if Scenarist handles big WAV files properly!

I would hope a $60,000 muxing app would handle big WAV files properly. It does take WAV as LPCM input so as long as I can get around MUI Generator and actually get the files into Scenarist I think I have a 50/50 shot at actually getting DTS-MA/TrueHD -> LPCM I am re-ripping Hitman for the umpteenth time as we speak and then I'll test it.
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Old 6th May 2008, 15:39   #4646  |  Link
jchappo
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Hmm, is it not possible to examine one of the studio created LPCM tracks and determine what exactly is making those work?

Edit: From my experience TsMuxer handles the LPCM files that the studio created, because I remux the original M2TS and move the LPCM track to audio track 1.

Last edited by jchappo; 6th May 2008 at 15:41.
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Old 6th May 2008, 16:17   #4647  |  Link
gregt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Just as a quick follow up:

This is why I stated in the v2.45 release notes that I still have to further improve eac3to for MPEG2 clips with such mode changes. For now I recommend to either wait with converting such clips. Or to demux video instead of muxing it to MKV. I'm planning to complete the MPEG2 muxing improvements in the next build, which should then handle such mode changes just fine.
Ok. No problem. I was just reporting the data for you to use. I have a lot of DVDs for testing.
Here is a new case:
eac3to v2.45
command line: eac3to vts_10_1.vob+vts_10_2.vob 2: sg1sXe16.mkv 3: sg1sXe16.ac3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VOB, 1 video track, 1 audio track, 6 subtitle tracks, 0:43:30
1: Joined VOB file
2: MPEG2, 480p30 /1.001 (16:9)
3: AC3, 5.1 channels, 448kbit/s, 48khz, dialnorm: -27dB
4: Subtitle
5: Subtitle
6: Subtitle
7: Subtitle
8: Subtitle
9: Subtitle
[v02] Extracting video track number 2...
[v02] Muxing video to Matroska...
[a03] Extracting audio track number 3...
[a03] Removing dialog normalization...
[v02] The MPEG2 stream changed from 30000p to 24000p at runtime 0:00:01.
[a03] Creating file "sg1sXe16.ac3"...
Added fps value to MKV header.
Video track 2 contains 62598 frames.
eac3to processing took 43 seconds.
Done.


During playback each frame snaps back to the previous one before going on to the next one. Very strange. For some reason not every episode has the "changed from 30000p to 24000p" and the ones that don't play perfectly.
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Old 6th May 2008, 16:25   #4648  |  Link
EPiPH0NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchappo View Post
Hmm, is it not possible to examine one of the studio created LPCM tracks and determine what exactly is making those work?

Edit: From my experience TsMuxer handles the LPCM files that the studio created, because I remux the original M2TS and move the LPCM track to audio track 1.
Yes all BluRay LPCM tracks I use are always track 1 in tsMuxeR followed by a secondary AC3/DTS track which necessary for the my target player. But they always work fine. It's just the ones I'm making myself that don't work right.
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Old 6th May 2008, 16:28   #4649  |  Link
EPiPH0NE
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Ok I just tried this:

eac3to.exe source.m2ts destination.wav -extensible


And this is what I get:

M2TS, 1 video track, 2 audio tracks, 1:34:15
1: Chapters, 25 chapters
2: h264/AVC, 1080p24 /1.001 (16:9)
3: AC3, Spanish, 5.1 channels, 448kbit/s, 48khz, dialnorm: -27dB
4: DTS Master Audio, English, 5.1 channels, 24 bits, 48khz
This audio conversion is not supported.
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Old 6th May 2008, 16:36   #4650  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchappo View Post
Hmm, is it not possible to examine one of the studio created LPCM tracks and determine what exactly is making those work?
How often do I need to explain this? The studio created LPCM track works because it's stored inside of an m2ts container and not inside of the WAV container. If you put the studio created LPCM track into a WAV container, TsMuxer would fail to work correctly, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPH0NE View Post
Ok I just tried this:

eac3to.exe source.m2ts destination.wav -extensible

And this is what I get:

M2TS, 1 video track, 2 audio tracks, 1:34:15
1: Chapters, 25 chapters
2: h264/AVC, 1080p24 /1.001 (16:9)
3: AC3, Spanish, 5.1 channels, 448kbit/s, 48khz, dialnorm: -27dB
4: DTS Master Audio, English, 5.1 channels, 24 bits, 48khz
This audio conversion is not supported.
Hmmmm... That's strange. Try "eac3to source.m2ts 4: dest.wav -extensible". Does that work? Or try without "-extensible", then do another pass "eac3to dest.wav dest2.wav -extensible". Does that work?
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Old 6th May 2008, 16:38   #4651  |  Link
deathlord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So I thought it'd make sense to convert all 6.1 stuff to 7.1
I have a 7.1 setup, so I'm happy with that.
Though maybe you should lower the volume a bit, because simply doubling the channel would make it too loud?

In any event, should you decide to disable the doubling, please make it an option!
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Old 6th May 2008, 16:44   #4652  |  Link
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Keep in mind that Sonic Scenarist 4.2 has a problem handling WAV files > 4 GB. So even commercial apps can be no better than the free stuff.
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Old 6th May 2008, 16:45   #4653  |  Link
Inventive Software
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectal Prolapse View Post
Keep in mind that Sonic Scenarist 4.2 has a problem handling WAV files > 4 GB. So even commercial apps can be no better than the free stuff.
You could of course get around that completely and use FLAC....
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Old 6th May 2008, 17:03   #4654  |  Link
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Scenarist handles FLAC? I didn't know that! (I don't have scenarist btw - but I've seen posts about it)
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Old 6th May 2008, 17:32   #4655  |  Link
EPiPH0NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectal Prolapse View Post
Keep in mind that Sonic Scenarist 4.2 has a problem handling WAV files > 4 GB. So even commercial apps can be no better than the free stuff.
Well crap to that then. Do the newer versions 4.3 or 4.5 fix any of this?
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Old 6th May 2008, 17:33   #4656  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inventive Software View Post
You could of course get around that completely and use FLAC....
Multi channel FLAC is not supported on my player.
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Old 6th May 2008, 17:50   #4657  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Hmmmm... That's strange. Try "eac3to source.m2ts 4: dest.wav -extensible". Does that work? Or try without "-extensible", then do another pass "eac3to dest.wav dest2.wav -extensible". Does that work?
Yes my full command included "eac3to source.m2ts 4:' I didn't want to oput the whole CMD line for security reasons. I am trying:

eac3to dest.m2ts dest2.wav

Then will do:

eac3to.exe dest2.wav dest3.wav -extensible

Seeing as my version of Scenarist BDA has probs with >4GB WAV files, I'm guessing this is fixed in newer versions, I will still be at square one unless there is way for me to properly join my other segmented files in Scenarist but I doubt that either.

Last edited by EPiPH0NE; 6th May 2008 at 17:52.
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Old 6th May 2008, 19:27   #4658  |  Link
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I've got something new going on with a seamless branching disc. Since the latest versions of eac3to support seamless branching I decided to give Nine Inch Nails: Beside You in Time another try.

Quote:
F:\Video\Movies>eac3to HALO_22
1) 00000.mpls (angle 1), 1:32:30
[0+29+31+28+27].m2ts
- VC-1, 1080i30 /1.001 (16:9)
- TrueHD, English, multi-channel, 48khz
- AC3, English, stereo, 48khz

2) 00000.mpls (angle 2), 1:32:30
[0+30+31+28+27].m2ts
- VC-1, 1080i30 /1.001 (16:9)
- TrueHD, English, multi-channel, 48khz
- AC3, English, stereo, 48khz

3) 00006.mpls, 00010.m2ts, 0:19:05
- VC-1, 1080i30 /1.001 (16:9)
- TrueHD, English, multi-channel, 48khz
- AC3, English, stereo, 48khz
Quote:
eac3to v2.45
command line: eac3to HALO_22 1) -demux
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
M2TS, 1 video track, 2 audio tracks, 1:32:30
1: Chapters, 22 chapters
2: VC-1, 1080i60 /1.001 (16:9)
3: TrueHD/AC3, English, 5.1 channels, 48khz
4: AC3, English, 2.0 channels, 256kbit/s, 48khz
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
Creating file "00000 - Chapters.txt"...
[v02] Extracting video track number 2...
[a03] Extracting audio track number 3...
[a03] Extracting audio track number 3...
[a04] Extracting audio track number 4...
[a03] Extracting AC3 stream...
[a03] Extracting TrueHD stream...
[a03] Creating file "00000 - 3 - TrueHD+AC3, English, 5.1 channels, 48khz.thd"...
[v02] Creating file "00000 - 2 - VC-1, 1080i60.vc1"...
[a03] Creating file "00000 - 3 - TrueHD+AC3, English, 5.1 channels, 48khz.ac3"...
[a04] Creating file "00000 - 4 - AC3, English, 2.0 channels, 256kbps, 48khz.ac3"...
[a03] The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
[v02] The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
[a03] The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
[a04] The program channel mapping changes in the middle of the stream.
Aborted at file position 16586463232.
This has been a pain in the ass disc since the day I bought it, and every time I try to fool around with it again, something new stops me. >.<

Edit: I've also tried using 2) instead of 1), but I get the same error.

Last edited by Chouonsoku; 6th May 2008 at 20:11.
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Old 6th May 2008, 21:56   #4659  |  Link
jchappo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
How often do I need to explain this? The studio created LPCM track works because it's stored inside of an m2ts container and not inside of the WAV container. If you put the studio created LPCM track into a WAV container, TsMuxer would fail to work correctly, too.
Excuse my ignorance madshi, I'm still learning. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with eac3to, I am just trying to find a solution to this problem. I imagine there will be many more people like myself who have this same problem in the recent future.
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Old 6th May 2008, 22:14   #4660  |  Link
EPiPH0NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchappo View Post
Excuse my ignorance madshi, I'm still learning. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with eac3to, I am just trying to find a solution to this problem. I imagine there will be many more people like myself who have this same problem in the recent future.

Yeah it seems you will need to use Scenarist BDA 4.3 or above to be able to do proper DTS-MA/TrueHD -> PCM/WAV conversions as tsMuxeR needs to support multi mono WAV like Scenarist does for this to happen for the open source peeps. Madshi already said this but I'll say it again for good measure.
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