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Old 2nd December 2012, 21:49   #15921  |  Link
DragonQ
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I'm sure I've mentioned this before but auto-detection of deinterlacing seems to be broken for some HDTV (UK) streams in MKVs (maybe other types of files too, dunno). The same streams in TS files deinterlace fine, and the MKVs deinterlace fine in EVR too. Using LAV Splitter/Video/Audio.

EDIT: On second thoughts, I think this is probably an issue in MKV Merge. My older MKVs work fine, newer ones don't. If it is, Mosu needs to know why the interlacing isn't detected properly so can you help with this please madshi? Samples:

TS - deinterlaced automatically
MKV - not deinterlaced automatically
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Last edited by DragonQ; 2nd December 2012 at 23:02.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 21:55   #15922  |  Link
Mangix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
Also, for people like me who have a powerful CPU and relatively weak GPU (i7-920 @ 3.8 GHz + GTS250), using software decoding might result in a quieter system because it stops the GPU fan kicking in.
using DXVA2 versus CUVID should keep clocks lower though.

and a GTS 250 is not that weak. it was the highest end stuff a couple of years back(remember that it's a rebranded 9800 GTX)
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Old 2nd December 2012, 22:10   #15923  |  Link
DragonQ
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Yeah but mine sucks, the fan's default setting is 100% and it seems to happily switch between 17-30% fan whilst idling in Windows, let alone playing videos, resulting in constant whining.

Thank Jebus for MSI Afterburner!
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Last edited by DragonQ; 2nd December 2012 at 22:22.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 23:04   #15924  |  Link
leeperry
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but there's also the story of some GPU's enabling their high performance speeds profile when using CUVID, isn't it? The GTX600 serie is not too power hungry but the 500 can quickly become a power hog...so in that case, only a wattmeter could really tell what your best option is I'm afraid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noee View Post
You can already do this with a "hacky" launcher of your own if you can code a little.
[..] it's handy to have.
I don't really care myself but I've never had the opportunity to use this emoticon:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaMG View Post
it could be awesome to be able to select the appropriate upscaling algorithms depending on the resolution of the video
and talking about dead horse feature requests, that'd be really great if we could disable the "windowed/exclusive" OSD messages at some point
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Old 2nd December 2012, 23:21   #15925  |  Link
noee
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Originally Posted by leeperry
I don't really care myself but I've never had the opportunity to use this emoticon:
It's currently part of a broader htpc controller app that configures (LAV, madVR, Windows Audio, multi-mon, etc.) externally, can't really split it out. Maybe at some point. Anyway, you'd hate it, it's C#....

But for jRiver users (and probably MPC and others, haven't looked), it's not difficult to script-monkey AutoHotkey to do the same, albeit even more hacky as it changes the madVR scaler after the video starts playing...
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Old 3rd December 2012, 02:05   #15926  |  Link
wanezhiling
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
For a fast PC, power usage is the only possible advantage you get, and some people just don't care and prefer the more reliable software decoder, which is just fine. /me shrugs
LAV CUVID always run @ max power...
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Old 3rd December 2012, 02:19   #15927  |  Link
strumf666
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I just installed PotPlayer build 34665 which has pixelshaders built-in but they don't appear to work with madvr. I use lavfilters for splitting and decoding, I am using hd4k for graphics atm (my amd 7750 is in rma...) in dxva2cb. Advice appreciated

Last edited by strumf666; 3rd December 2012 at 02:24.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 06:19   #15928  |  Link
nx6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Hardware acceleration should be used whenever possible. And to quote nevcairiel:
If we're going to bring up nev (and madshi for that matter)'s personal views into this I seem to remember both of them advocating software decoding as the better solution because:
  1. It wont break due to GPU driver changes/goofy "support" for certain formats in hardware.
  2. More consistent, reliable decoding.
  3. It balances the playback load more evenly over the entire machine and lets the GPU resources be focused on rendering without added decoding duties

'Course they may have changed their views with recent performance improvements in both their respective projects. So I'd like to hear if they think differently.

DXVA is more what I would turn to if my system was simply too underpowered to handle something on CPU for decoding. It's nice for low-end HTPCs and Netbook playback in other words.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:36   #15929  |  Link
toniash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strumf666 View Post
I just installed PotPlayer build 34665 which has pixelshaders built-in but they don't appear to work with madvr. I use lavfilters for splitting and decoding, I am using hd4k for graphics atm (my amd 7750 is in rma...) in dxva2cb. Advice appreciated
This build doesn't have support por PS in Madvr yet, you must wait for a new version
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:26   #15930  |  Link
DragonQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
I'm sure I've mentioned this before but auto-detection of deinterlacing seems to be broken for some HDTV (UK) streams in MKVs (maybe other types of files too, dunno). The same streams in TS files deinterlace fine, and the MKVs deinterlace fine in EVR too. Using LAV Splitter/Video/Audio.

EDIT: On second thoughts, I think this is probably an issue in MKV Merge. My older MKVs work fine, newer ones don't. If it is, Mosu needs to know why the interlacing isn't detected properly so can you help with this please madshi? Samples:

TS - deinterlaced automatically
MKV - not deinterlaced automatically
Did some more testing - if I take an old TS file (from 10/11/2012) and mux it as I normally would with MKVMerge, the resulting MKV file deinterlaces properly and plays smoothly in MadVR. If I do exactly the same thing with a file recorded yesterday (02/12/2012), the resulting MKV is treated as progressive and the playback speed changes all over the place in certain parts. So now I'm thinking maybe something has changed on the broadcaster's end, which is causing a break somewhere along the chain. Very interested to solve this mystery!

By the way, this is all on my desktop and is nothing to do with the "MadVR reports deinterlacing failed" message on Arrandale. This is just failed auto-detection of interlaced material.

A summary of the problems for me:

1) All TS files with AAC audio:
- EVR: TS plays fine, MKV plays fine.
- MadVR: TS plays fine, MKV is treated as progressive so not deinterlaced.

2) Older TS files (e.g. from 10/11/2012) with AC3 audio:
- EVR: TS plays fine, MKV plays fine.
- MadVR: TS plays fine, MKV plays fine.

3) Newer TS files (e.g. from 02/12/2012) with AC3 audio:
- EVR: TS plays fine, MKV plays slowly (46-48 fps) with playback speed jumping all over the place and a really dodgy graph.
- MadVR: TS plays fine, MKV is treated as progressive so not deinterlaced and also playback speed is all over the place.
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Last edited by DragonQ; 3rd December 2012 at 10:53.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 14:24   #15931  |  Link
strumf666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toniash View Post
This build doesn't have support por PS in Madvr yet, you must wait for a new version
Thanks for answering.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 16:53   #15932  |  Link
petri234
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Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but DXVA decoding with default settings crashes MPC-HC for me about 50% of the time when viewing 23.976p material. This only happens when skipping forward or backward, however if the player does not crash, I can skip forward safely as many times as I please. I am using LAV filters and a laptop with ATI 4670.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 20:21   #15933  |  Link
manma
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I'm not sure if I understand completely yet. Can increasing or decreasing queue sizes help reduce dropped frames? Ever since I set up yCMS color calibration with madvr, I've had a good amount frame dropping, and I need to do something to make up for the performance loss. Is there anything I can do other than get another GPU (not an option, as I'm on a laptop).
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Old 3rd December 2012, 22:05   #15934  |  Link
Nekomata
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can i use this with lav filter?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 22:27   #15935  |  Link
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Of course, you really shouldn't ask the same question in two different threads.
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Old 4th December 2012, 01:07   #15936  |  Link
HauntingShock
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Could anyone give me a step-by-step procedure to enable the "Save Image" option in MPC-HC? I'm using MadVR and it says that it's not supported... but how come I could see those people here have it working?

I got the official build 1.6.4.6052.
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Old 4th December 2012, 01:23   #15937  |  Link
dansrfe
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Originally Posted by HauntingShock View Post
Could anyone give me a step-by-step procedure to enable the "Save Image" option in MPC-HC? I'm using MadVR and it says that it's not supported... but how come I could see those people here have it working?

I got the official build 1.6.4.6052.
Always install the latest build from here: http://xhmikosr.1f0.de/mpc-hc

Last edited by dansrfe; 4th December 2012 at 02:38.
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Old 4th December 2012, 01:25   #15938  |  Link
wanezhiling
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Official build doesnt support that, use nightly buildhttp://xhmikosr.1f0.de/mpc-hc/
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Old 4th December 2012, 02:50   #15939  |  Link
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Going back to the discussion about default scaling algorithms, since getting this GT610 (still waiting on my replacement GTX570) I am obviously right at the bottom end of what video cards will support madVR, which has had me re-evaluating things from a performance vs image quality perspective.

I've also had the opportunity to watch a few more films than I normally would recently, and having a larger sample group is always good to have to spot issues that show up in real-world content rather than test patterns or a small selection of specific samples. In particular, I noticed quite a few problems showing up from using Bilinear for Chroma upscaling, just from watching films.


I really don't think that having Bilinear as the default for Chroma is a good choice. As Chroma is only ever a 2x scaling operation, the performance impact of using a better scaling algorithm seems to be minimal in most cases.

While not related to selecting good defaults, in my testing, I also happened to come across a use-case for Jinc 8. There are some images I came across where using Jinc 8 AR for Chroma was the only option that looked really good, being the only choice that avoided aliasing and maintained the correct brightness/saturation for Chroma. This is not an endorsement of using it, as there are most likely problems using it with other images (as there tends to be with higher-tap filters) but I thought it was interesting.

The only other algorithm that looked decent with this image was SoftCubic 100, which was too dull/desaturated, but avoided most of the aliasing.

  1. Jinc 8 AR
  2. SoftCubic 100
  3. Spline 3 AR
  4. Bicubic 75
At lower values, both Jinc and SoftCubic started to show the same aliasing problems as the others. While it may look good in this example, I don't recommend using SoftCubic Chroma scaling at all, as it tends to give poor results in most other images.


But going back to selecting good defaults for madVR, here's an example where using the default Lanczos 3 AR Luma with Bilinear Chroma looks particularly bad:


This had a rendering time of almost 90ms.

In comparison, Bicubic 75 Chroma with SoftCubic 80 Luma (which requires no AR filter) has a rendering time of 32ms:


Changing Chroma from Bicubic 75 to Bilinear with SoftCubic 80 Luma only drops rendering times by 2ms, to 30ms total.


And as a "reference" image, this is Lanczos 3 AR Luma with Jinc 8 AR Chroma. (395ms!)



Now I don't suggest that SoftCubic 80 be the default for Luma at all, but I worry that Lanczos 3 AR will be too taxing for a lot of hardware.
I wish I had access to an Intel HD 4000 to test performance with, because that seems like a reasonable card to use as the "minimum spec" for the defaults.


Here are some numbers from that particular test though:

Bicubic Luma scaling:
  • Bilinear Chroma: 30ms
  • Bicubic 75 Chroma: 32ms
  • Jinc 3 Chroma: 64ms
Lanczos 3 Luma:
  • Bilinear Chroma: 45ms
  • Bicubic 75 Chroma: 47ms
  • Jinc 3 Chroma: 78ms
DXVA2 Luma:
  • Bilinear Chroma: 50ms
  • Bicubic 75 Chroma: 59ms
  • Jinc 3 Chroma: 290ms
Bicubic AR Luma:
  • Bilinear Chroma: 61ms
  • Bicubic 75 Chroma: 63ms
  • Jinc 3 Chroma: 94ms
Lanczos 3 AR Luma:
  • Bilinear Chroma: 86ms
  • Bicubic 75 Chroma: 88ms
  • Jinc 3 Chroma: 119ms


While I didn't do testing on them individually, all the Bicubic variants (Mitchell-Netravali, Catmull-Rom, Bicubic, SoftCubic) should result in the same rendering times, and Lanczos/Spline tend to give roughly the same results as well.

From looking at those numbers, I think that it would probably be best to use Bicubic 75 Chroma, which can be a significant visual improvement over Bilinear in many cases (often a close visual match to Lanczos or Jinc) for a minimal performance hit compared to Bilinear.

While I know that some people prefer softer Chroma settings, Bicubic 75 still seems to be the best balance between ringing/aliasing and maintaining the correct brightness/saturation for Chroma with a minimal performance hit. I wouldn't use it for Luma, but I've found almost nothing where it has caused problems for Chroma.


It may not be my personal preference, but I would then probably suggest using either Lanczos 3 or Spline 3 (probably Spline due to the reduced ringing) without the AR filter as the default for Luma upscaling.

The rendering times I posted are for comparative purposes from upscaling Blu-ray beyond 1080p, which is not indicative of real-world use (typically DVD or 720p up to 1080p) so I haven't run into any performance issues with playback when testing those settings yet. (almost 50ms would imply dropping frames)

If you're really wanting to reduce rendering times for your default, I would probably go with some level of SoftCubic for the Luma upscaling, but I know that's too soft for a lot of people. It does manage to avoid aliasing and ringing very well at higher levels though. EDIT: Or Mitchell-Netravali might be a better choice. The other Bicubic variants probably have too much ringing or aliasing to be suitable for the default Luma algorithm.



And now that I've overclocked the card (1GHz GPU/720MHz RAM) I seem to be able to play Blu-ray downscaled in linear light using Catmull-Rom AR without any problems, though it is probably still too taxing on some systems.

I still need to do a good performance and image quality test for downscaling algorithms. It's really not a priority for me though, as I use a 1080p native display, and the only time I downsample is when I have something playing at the side of a web browser, which is never a film, and therefore not particularly important to me as far as image quality is concerned.

Last edited by 6233638; 4th December 2012 at 05:36.
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Old 4th December 2012, 02:56   #15940  |  Link
HauntingShock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Always install the latest build from here: http://xhmikosr.1f0.de/mpc-hc
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanezhiling View Post
Official build doesnt support that, use nightly buildhttp://xhmikosr.1f0.de/mpc-hc/
Thanks

I've encountered that site and those builds before but I thought it was untrusted... looks like I'm wrong.
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