Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st February 2020, 15:57   #58741  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
You know, I see you beating on the calibration drum an awful lot. Which is fine and all. But you'd think if you were so passionate about it, you'd invest in a real colorimeter like a Klein instead of the i1d3 toy most of us are using. After all, if accuracy is the end all and be all of video watching, then having a real meter to measure and calibrate your display with should be paramount. Not to mention you bring up panel drift while measuring....well, if you want to avoid that, you need a FAST, accurate meter. Otherwise, while you're improving things with the i1d3, it's not nearly as accurate as it should be.
It's not just the meter, the consumer panels themselves can't hold a tight tolerance.

You have to buy the tools to match the job, I can't afford a $40,000 colorist panel, I'm not going to buy a $7000 colorimeter + $10,000 spectro.

@ the level of home movie watching, i1d3 is perfectly placed, affordable, and it works.

To get any more accurate, and STAY accurate, you need a temperature controlled system for the tv and tools.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz

Last edited by tp4tissue; 21st February 2020 at 16:00.
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 17:10   #58742  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,109
Hiya, this is the same as everything we buy really, the more your spend and the more time you have to set things up the better it will be, however with something like PQ this is so subjective it can often render the calibration process meaningless to most people. And I'm not just talking about people who turn their TV on, dont change any settings and think it looks great, my mates got his OLED calibrated and to my eye it looks no better than mine.

I think you are in a ludicrously tiny minority here what you appear to require an insanely anal level of accuracy which if were compared side by side to fairly high end TV uncalibrated like the recent panny's or 2019 LG OLEDs you'd see little difference, or the difference would not justify the time and money spent to close the gap.

This isnt too say I dont agree with everything you're saying and there is nothing wrong at all with aspiring to get the best out of your equipment, its just the way your are communicating this I cant agree with where you are essentially saying we're all watching TV's like look like sh*t.

__________________
OLED 4k HDR EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 1909 444 RGB -MD RX 5700 8GB 20.1.3 KODI DS - MAD/LAV 92.17+ 113 beta - 0.74.1 - 3D MVC / FSE:off / MADVR 10bit
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 17:19   #58743  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,429
Let's put it this way, in the Calman thread there's a couple people who, when asked about calibration and whether it's worth it, have basically said it all depends. The LG OLEDs are a lottery. You could end up with one that comes tuned from the factory and not need any calibration. Others deviate quite a bit and can really use a good calibration. But without measuring it you can't really know what you have. The general advice from these people is this....if you are happy with the results you get out of the box, leave it alone. When I measure my C8 with factory settings, I see a deviation error of 5 or 6. Meaning yes, it's visible to the human eye. But to the majority of people out there? Throwing that thing in technicolor mode and leaving it alone is going to be more than sufficient. So while I get that calibration is useful, and I calibrate mine, for a majority of people it's likely overkill on a decent panel. But that's just my opinion. To me, madvr's algorithms are vastly more important than a flawless calibration.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10, I9 9900k, RTX 2070 Founder's Edition, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG C8 65" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 17:27   #58744  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,109
well i guess if we all agreed this would be a very dull thread, its certainly good to thrash these issues out as long as we can all keep it friendly
__________________
OLED 4k HDR EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 1909 444 RGB -MD RX 5700 8GB 20.1.3 KODI DS - MAD/LAV 92.17+ 113 beta - 0.74.1 - 3D MVC / FSE:off / MADVR 10bit
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 17:30   #58745  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 495
There's no such thing as Good out of the box. It's only OK because the buyer wishes to remain Ignorant of what Good is.

That's their right as owners, but it doesn't mean the Panel is doing right, the panel is still wrong.

Even if it was the case with luck, and you win the lottery on a good panel, it doesn't STAY accurate. The first 100 hours it changes ALOT,

Then at 300-500 it stabilizes somewhat (having already drifted quite a bit).

You're not paying for the drill bit, you're paying for the hole.

You don't pay for the TV, you pay for the tv to get the MOVIE to you in the way that it's intended to be seen.

Without calibration, you don't get all of what you pay for, you're getting a crooked hole that's not drilled through all the way.

With all the money for madvr hdr, it's $500-800 computer + $500-1500 TV, it's silly to stop short at the $150 colorimeter (sale price i1dp) ?

Without which the image is 100% borked.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz

Last edited by tp4tissue; 21st February 2020 at 17:40.
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 17:34   #58746  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,429
Don't get me wrong, I think calibration is important as obviously I spent the money to get the equipment and software to do it myself. But to say that it's the end all be all of video watching is a stretch. There are a LOT of factors that go into the picture quality that you get on the screen. Calibration is simply ONE of those factors. Raising it up to be above all others is, IMO, not helpful. Calibration is a tool. But so is buying a decent panel or projector, the size of your room, the amount of ambient light you're dealing with, and a 100 other realities that people deal with. EVERYTHING we do in the video world is a set of compromises. It's a matter of picking which things to compromise more on than others. There's nothing wrong with saying calibration can help in a lot of areas...as that can be true. But saying that if you don't calibrate anything you watch is wrong, well, I'm not buying that. Especially given what I've seen with my own equipment. This goes back to what I said in the OLED thread....generalized statements that don't account for ALL the variables often lead to the wrong conclusions.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10, I9 9900k, RTX 2070 Founder's Edition, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG C8 65" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 18:52   #58747  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
But saying that if you don't calibrate anything you watch is wrong, well, I'm not buying that. Especially given what I've seen with my own equipment. This goes back to what I said in the OLED thread....generalized statements that don't account for ALL the variables often lead to the wrong conclusions.
It Begins and Ends with calibration.

It is by far the most critical step. Without which the world has no order.

I've already said, OK, if anarchy is the choice of the viewer, that's fine.

However, His choice does not alter what's right and wrong.


You're tasked to drill a hole, do you get paid for not completing this task.

Maybe in this case, you get a fee for just showing up and lifting some boxes, but to get full payment, You have to drill the hole.

So, the guy buys the tv, and he just watches it, OK, he's lifted some boxes. Fine, if he's content with just that, again fine.

It doesn't change the fact that this person didn't go all the way, and skipped a critical step to the day's work. He showed up, but didn't finish.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 19:54   #58748  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,109
if you truly believe what you're saying I genuinely feel sorry for you, if must be very debilitating to be this anal about your TV accuracy, the rest of us are just doing our best with what we have and happily just getting on with enjoying our movies.
__________________
OLED 4k HDR EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 1909 444 RGB -MD RX 5700 8GB 20.1.3 KODI DS - MAD/LAV 92.17+ 113 beta - 0.74.1 - 3D MVC / FSE:off / MADVR 10bit
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 20:45   #58749  |  Link
VBB
Registered User
 
VBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 145
The funny thing is that the rest of us at least have OLEDs, which makes the most sense, if you really care about picture quality. That's basically step one right there. Then comes the i1D3, but without a spectro to match, you still have no idea how accurate your calibration really is.

tp4tissue, do yourself a favor and go over to AVS and read some of the recent posts by liberator72, jrref, mrtickleuk, and even our own SamuriHL. Talk about passion...
__________________
Henry

LG OLED65C7P | Denon AVR-X3500H | ELAC Uni-Fi x7 | ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960 | LAV Filters | madVR | MPC-HC | Plex | X-Rite i1Display Pro | DisplayCAL | HCFR
VBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 20:51   #58750  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,429
I go back to my point that if you care that much about calibration then you should NOT accept the results of a 250 dollar meter. Because that meter is not accurate enough to calibrate to the professional standards you claim to care about. Then you say it's not worth it on a consumer display because they are also not able to represent the accuracy of a professional studio quality screen. Yea. No kidding. That's kind of the point we're making here. That for all your talk of calibration, you're still not 100% accurate and never will be with the equipment you're using. But yet you tell others that if you don't calibrate they're wrong. Calibrating with the wrong tools isn't exactly right.

@vbb yup lol
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10, I9 9900k, RTX 2070 Founder's Edition, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG C8 65" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 21:30   #58751  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,109
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
after some time you will start seeing the ghosting it creates.
Hi, you were right, I lasted about 30 mins with it, its very subtle but its there, its not present with tru motion, I actually find this works really well for my Lg OLED, its likely just be a personal taste thing though.
__________________
OLED 4k HDR EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 1909 444 RGB -MD RX 5700 8GB 20.1.3 KODI DS - MAD/LAV 92.17+ 113 beta - 0.74.1 - 3D MVC / FSE:off / MADVR 10bit
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 21:40   #58752  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,429
Yea I don't use it either. I find a LITTLE tru motion goes a long way. Some people love SM though.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10, I9 9900k, RTX 2070 Founder's Edition, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG C8 65" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 21:45   #58753  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post
The funny thing is that the rest of us at least have OLEDs, which makes the most sense, if you really care about picture quality. That's basically step one right there. Then comes the i1D3, but without a spectro to match, you still have no idea how accurate your calibration really is.

tp4tissue, do yourself a favor and go over to AVS and read some of the recent posts by liberator72, jrref, mrtickleuk, and even our own SamuriHL. Talk about passion...
I owned an oled for a short amount of time. I really like the picture too.

What I couldn't accept is how fragile they are, there was clearly bad retention for me in the month i tested it out. It made no sense to stay on oled, when LMCL is right around the corner, and makes oled obsolete.

It doesn't come down to price, even a $3000 tv, over the course of 5 years, that's really nothing.

But Every waking moment at the PC, I gotta add an extra few steps to my usage routine just to not burn in the menu, or take time to consider if a UI would affect the uniformity, That's truly insane.

Picture quality is the most important thing, but OLED is not the solution, it never was, and probably won't be for 10-15 years.

Meanwhile, LMCL this year, all day panel.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 21:50   #58754  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I go back to my point that if you care that much about calibration then you should NOT accept the results of a 250 dollar meter. Because that meter is not accurate enough to calibrate to the professional standards you claim to care about. Then you say it's not worth it on a consumer display because they are also not able to represent the accuracy of a professional studio quality screen. Yea. No kidding. That's kind of the point we're making here. That for all your talk of calibration, you're still not 100% accurate and never will be with the equipment you're using. But yet you tell others that if you don't calibrate they're wrong. Calibrating with the wrong tools isn't exactly right.

@vbb yup lol
You're wrong, i said it's not worth it to buy $10000 meters on a consumer screens because they're not able to HOLD the accuracy of a studio screen.

There's a difference, YES you can make them more accurate with better measurement tools, but they can't hold that accuracy for long enough to make usage practical.

I've said you need the right tools for the right job.

For any consumer panel, va, oled, any of um', i1d3 is the right tool. And it works within the usage tolerance of these panels.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 21:59   #58755  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
For any consumer panel, va, oled, any of um', i1d3 is the right tool. And it works within the usage tolerance of these panels.
I'm sorry, but, it's nonsense. You absolutely CAN NOT know that you've improved things with an i1d3 that has not been properly profiled. Period. Full stop. You can absolutely make the picture FAR worse with a bad calibration than if you just left it alone. This is a fact. And without profiling your meter against a spectro, you don't know for sure whether you've made it better or worse. So you can sit here and talk about the magic of calibration and accuracy all you want, but, the tool you're using doesn't allow you to know for SURE that you're more accurate than it was before. This is one of the topics we've been discussing in depth in the Calman thread.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10, I9 9900k, RTX 2070 Founder's Edition, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG C8 65" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 22:10   #58756  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I'm sorry, but, it's nonsense. You absolutely CAN NOT know that you've improved things with an i1d3 that has not been properly profiled. Period. Full stop. You can absolutely make the picture FAR worse with a bad calibration than if you just left it alone. This is a fact. And without profiling your meter against a spectro, you don't know for sure whether you've made it better or worse. So you can sit here and talk about the magic of calibration and accuracy all you want, but, the tool you're using doesn't allow you to know for SURE that you're more accurate than it was before. This is one of the topics we've been discussing in depth in the Calman thread.

It comes down to what you're trying to improve. The goal of calibration is not to acheive lab accuracy. It's to replicate the artistic intent of the deliverable, (if possible make it look nice).

You fundamentally misunderstand the application of colorimetry if your goal is absolute accuracy.

It'd be nice, but that's not the point of including calibration in the loop.

Having calibration, as i've said in the beginning, is to at the very least remove the blindness of the output devices.

And your statements are blatently false. You can not make a panel worse, unless the spec correction is for the wrong panel.

Maybe back when we had CCFLs and very unstable phosphors that was the case, but in the case of the LEDs, and the Newer generation quantum films, they're very very stable over time, in fact probably OLED is the least stable among all the panel techs out..

Whether or not we know it's accurate is irrelevant. This is the limit of what is possible with consumer devices, these are the product options, and that's that, we do the best with what we've got.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz

Last edited by tp4tissue; 21st February 2020 at 22:15.
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 22:18   #58757  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,429
Oh you definitely CAN make it worse. These meters are all over the place in terms of accuracy. So if you think your 250 dollar meter is as accurate as a 7000 Klein you're simply wrong. There's a reason they sell the Spectracal C6 for 700 bucks even though it's literally a rebranded i1d3. It's because they've certified the accuracy of it. When you buy a retail i1d3, until you profile it, you simply don't know how accurate it is. If you calibrate with a meter that is not profiled, you absolutely can make a TV worse. We have tons and tons of posts in the Calman thread to prove that point. This is why most people who care about accuracy get their meter profiled against their tv with a spectro. I have not, so, even I can't trust my calibration results. To me it definitely looks better but I've no way to validate that other than my own eyeballs. There's another whole discussion about whether to use the Lightspace generated EDR for the i1d3 with Calman or to use raw. Because the EDR was profiled against a WOLED panel that is identical to the C8. That's what I use, and I definitely have better results using it. But, what would be better is to profile the meter with a spectro against my C8 directly. Then I'd know for sure that the results I get are accurate. Otherwise, we're just hoping the meter is "close enough". And the retail version of this meter is another lottery. Some are quite accurate. Some aren't.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10, I9 9900k, RTX 2070 Founder's Edition, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG C8 65" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 22:23   #58758  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 495
You're projecting your own poor comprehension. I never said a 250 meter is as accurate as a Klein.

You absolutely CAN NOT make a TV worse as long as the right spectro correction is used, even with a $150 meter.

Even in the cases where the spectral distribution has drifted or is inaccurate, using only a colorimeter will still dramtically decrease the Average error.

We don't NEED TO KNOW how accurate it is. This is not possible or necessary, I don't know why you're stuck on this point, because I never claimed otherwise.

I never said anything about validation, because we don't have the tools or the panels to justify it.

I've only ever said, we need calibration in the loop. Without which it's a mess due to factory tuning. And along the way, I've corrected some of your ramblings.

Nothing you've been harping on conflicts with what I've said. You've created some invisible enemy in your mind, I have no idea who you're arguing with.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz

Last edited by tp4tissue; 21st February 2020 at 22:30.
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 22:33   #58759  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,429
Maybe I'm "stuck on that point" because I've been working on calibrating my C8 with people who are considered very experienced in doing it for the past several months. But hey, what do I know. What exactly does calibration mean without knowing what the results are? Let me give you just a small example of what I mean....this meter is not very good at handling low light level situations, which really SUCK for calibrating an OLED because there's no backlight to measure again. So if you just blow through an autocal like they tell you to do, you're going to have very messed up levels in the lower end of the grayscale. And when the 3DLUT is calculated based on that screwed up grayscale measurement and adjustment, guess what happens to the picture quality? My only point that I'm making is that not all "calibrations" are equal. Just like you're not accepting someone manually adjusting a TV with their eyes because that's error prone, I'm saying using a meter that isn't profiled against reference equipment is also error prone. But if you don't want to believe and accept that, it's perfectly fine.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10, I9 9900k, RTX 2070 Founder's Edition, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG C8 65" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2020, 22:40   #58760  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I'm saying using a meter that isn't profiled against reference equipment is also error prone. But if you don't want to believe and accept that, it's perfectly fine.
All meters are profiled against referenced equipment, if they weren't they wouldn't be meters.

The spectral correction from a different meter, is to tailor the colorimeter even closer to the true value.

What exactly are you saying I don't believe, I've gone through the same work flow and talk to the same people you have.


I'm sorry to hear autocal didn't work out for you, it seems like you're mad at me, for LG's incompetance.

I never said all calibrations are equal. Why are you saying that I've made all these arguments I haven't made.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.